3

When Rambam says that a principle of faith is that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moshe, does he include both written and oral Torah, or only the written Torah?

If the former, to what extent? Since he speaks of the Torah that we now have, it cannot mean the Oral Torah in an abstract sense, but, it seems to me, must include some redaction currently in our possession. Does he mean the entire Talmud? Only the Mishnah?

yoel
  • 7,221
  • 29
  • 59
  • 1
    Potentially related. – yoel Jan 04 '13 at 21:02
  • 1
    Note the Ani Maamin and Yigdal poems were not written by the Rambam. Are you sure the Rambam said "the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moshe"? – Double AA Jan 04 '13 at 21:17
  • Come to that, I don't even know the original source. Is it in Mishneh Torah? – yoel Jan 04 '13 at 21:25
  • 1
    @yoel The original source is his commentary to mishnah (which is therefore the source I quoted in my answer) – b a Jan 04 '13 at 21:27
  • @yoel I recommend stating in the Q that your quote is from a poem which summarizes the 13 principles, and that you are looking for clarification of the Rambams original exact position. – Double AA Jan 04 '13 at 21:29
  • @DoubleAA I'd rather just put the actual quote, and the Rambam's exact position is my question. – yoel Jan 04 '13 at 21:39
  • @ba would you consider editing his exact words into your answer? – yoel Jan 04 '13 at 21:41
  • @yoel I added it. – b a Jan 04 '13 at 21:53
  • @yoel If you are looking for the Rambam's original wording because you have a later summary of it in the form of Ani Maamin, then why not ask exactly that? Say: This is a summary of the Rambam's principle from the poem Ani Maamin. What is Rambam's original formulation and how does it clarify these certain ambiguities in the summary? (If you don't give me a reason not to, I'll make such an edit later tonight.) – Double AA Jan 05 '13 at 23:46
  • worth noting http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2010/05/do-i-accept-rambams-8th.html – Double AA Jan 06 '13 at 04:23
  • @DoubleAA the question would be not just "What is Rambam's original formulation and how does it clarify these certain ambiguities in the summary?" but "What is Rambam's original formulation, how does it clarify these certain ambiguities in the summary, and, if it doesn't, then what does he hold about them?". – msh210 Jan 06 '13 at 06:36
  • @msh210 that's closer, although I still think that the exact phrasing is only important for the sake of clarification. – yoel Jan 06 '13 at 06:39
  • @msh210 Also ok. Just right now the initial claim is unsourced. – Double AA Jan 06 '13 at 06:39
  • @DoubleAA Actually, according to this source, Rabbi Ya'akov Emden attributes Yigdal to Rambam. – b a Jan 07 '13 at 07:46

1 Answers1

8

The Rambam, towards the end of his commentary to Sanhedrin 10:1, explicitly mentions the oral Torah.

... Similarly, the transmitted explanation of the Torah was also received from G-d. This is what we do nowadays with the forms of the sukah, lulav, shofar, tzitzis, tefilin, etc., which are the exact same forms that G-d gave to Mosheh. ...

b a
  • 24,685
  • 2
  • 54
  • 112
  • 2
    Well, he mentions פירוש המקובל such has the shape of a sukkah, tefillin and tzitzit. That doesn't sound like every possible detail in the Mishna is a requirement per se. In fact, it clearly would not apply to Mishna/Gemara that has to do with derabanans or minhagim; only interpretation of the Biblical (not Nach) text. – Double AA Jan 04 '13 at 21:27
  • @DoubleAA What is your reason for a distinction between the shape of tefilin etc. and other oral laws? And derabanans and minhagim are obviously not part of the oral Torah (aside from the position of the Bahag quoted by Ramban on the first root of Sefer HaMitzvos) – b a Jan 04 '13 at 21:32
  • So now it's a question of what exactly he means by "the transmitted explanation". As you note, opinions on what we received at Sinai range from "the sources from which much of the Mishnah was redacted" to "the Talmud in its entirety, word for word". – yoel Jan 04 '13 at 21:59
  • 2
    @yoel From the introduction to the Mishneh Torah, it would seem that Perush[ah] ha-Mequbal refers to the Mitzvah that Mosheh commanded "to the elders, to Yehoshua, and to all the rest of Israel"( Haqdamah sec. 3), and was passed from one generation to the next, which is called Torah shebe-Al Peh. This is distinguished from the Gezerot, Minhagot, Taqanot, and Dinin Pil'iyim that were enacted and decided in subsequent generations( Haqdamah sec. 25-27). – Tamir Evan Jan 05 '13 at 17:31
  • @ba ("shape" isn't so different from "form") I was taking a minimalist position (ie what is the smallest set of things that have to be included in this definition), cf http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/18735/why-dont-we-just-follow-the-shittah-of-moshe-rabeinu although TamirEvan points to some good points as to what the Rambam's personal Shittah is. That said, even if you think the Rambam's 13 principles are definitive, I don't know if that means we have to take his understanding of TShBP. In general though I'm very cautious about drawing precise lines in Ikarei Emunah. – Double AA Jan 05 '13 at 23:41