Talmud comes from Har Sinai?

Question

I recently heard from an unreliable source that a certain Chasidic rabbi in my hometown claims that the entire oral Torah in its current written form (including the Bavli, the Yerushalmi, and all of the Torah she'b'al'peh that came later) was given at Har Sinai and passed down orally verbatim until it was finally written down.

I am pretty sure that the person who I heard this from is mistaken because I have never heard anybody make such a claim, but that's why I am asking here whether there is any group or authority who make this claim?

"Wow", said Rabbah bar bar Channah, as his teacher relayed to him what would be the future TB Bava Basra 73-75, "I am going to get up to some pretty weird stuff, it seems." — jake, Apr 15 '13 at 14:35
Would this mean that we have to treat every takana and gezeira derabanan as a halacha leMoshe miSinai? — Isaac Moses, Apr 15 '13 at 16:17
@IsaacMoses, that's an interesting question even if we don't accept this assumption as true. We believe that Torah she'b'al peh comes from Har Sinai (even if not word-for-word), so where do all of the takanas, etc. come from? — Daniel, Apr 15 '13 at 16:30
@Daniel, who ever (besides the rabbi in the rumor) said that enactments of the Rabbis are ToShB"A (in the sense of what we got at Sinai along with Scripture), per se? — Isaac Moses, Apr 15 '13 at 16:33
@IsaacMoses I don't think there is any claim that he considers the Oral Torah to be any different from what others consider the Oral Torah. Although, if there is no such thing as a real chiddush, as SethJ mentions in his answer, they must be in there somewhere. — Daniel, Apr 15 '13 at 16:39
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/23343/does-rambam-include-the-oral-torah-in-his-eighth-principle/23344#comment54790_23344 — Double AA, Apr 15 '13 at 16:41
@Daniel, It's a contradiction in terms to say that takanot and gezeirot are anything other than chiddushim. David Hamelech did not send mishloach manot on the 14th of Adar. In so not doing, he was not missing the fulfillment of a positive commandment. Until the gezeirot of Mordechai and Esther, there was no such commandment, and now there is. That's chiddush. Any concept of "there's no chiddush" or "it all came verbatim at Sinai" that doesn't exclude derabanans has a lot to explain away and is not something I'd accept as even possibly valid without a solid source. — Isaac Moses, Apr 15 '13 at 16:54
@IsaacMoses, I agree with you. Apparently some people don't, though. And apparently they have some basis in gemarra (I can't check it now). — Daniel, Apr 15 '13 at 16:59
@DoubleAA Sounds on-point: "בשעה שעלה הקמש ב״ה בסיני ליתן תורה לישראל אמרה למשה על הסדר מקרא ומשנה תלמוד ואגדה שנא׳ (שמות כ) וידבר אלהים את כל הדברים האלה אפילו מה שהתלמיד שואל לרב אמר הקרוש ב״ה למשה באותה שעה" — Isaac Moses, Apr 15 '13 at 17:37
@IsaacMoses: Megilla 19B http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=11&daf=19b&format=pdf -- ואמר ר' חייא בר אבא א"ר יוחנן מאי דכתיב ועליהם ככל הדברים אשר דבר ה' עמכם בהר מלמד שהראהו הקב"ה למשה דקדוקי תורה ודקדוקי סופרים ומה שהסופרים עתידין לחדש ומאי ניהו מקרא מגילה — Menachem, Apr 15 '13 at 18:31
@Menachem http://judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/comments/66135 This source seems to exclude all rabbinic enactments except megillah. — Double AA, Apr 15 '13 at 18:39
@DoubleAA: See the footnote at the bottom of page 31, 32 of http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=r54bbqIYAZgC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false -- A long list of sources for the statement "‫כל מה שתלמיד ותיק עתיד‬‫ לחדש ככר ניתן למשה מסיני‬" (which is slightly different than the gemara and midrashic sources mentioned in this thread) — Menachem, Apr 15 '13 at 18:53
@IsaacMoses: with regards to your first question, see point 5 in this answer: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot/8242#8242 — Menachem, Apr 15 '13 at 18:58
Now you have a problem: every answer on Mi Yodeya needs to be accepted as they were all given to Moshe at Sinai and must be accurate! — Double AA, Apr 24 '14 at 16:46
I'm surprised to see that no one has cited the Talmud Bavli in Masekhet Berakhot 5A (Original, English): "וא"ר לוי בר חמא אמר ר' שמעון בן לקיש מאי דכתיב ואתנה לך את לוחות האבן והתורה והמצוה אשר כתבתי להורותם לוחות אלו עשרת הדברות תורה זה מקרא והמצוה זו משנה אשר כתבתי אלו נביאים וכתובים להורותם זה גמרא מלמד שכולם נתנו למשה מסיני". I heard it from HaRav Eyal Wered of Makhon Me'ir (B"N will find citation) that there are many who interpret this Gemara quite literally. — Lee, Jun 24 '15 at 14:19
@Lee There is a big distinction to be made between the ToSHB"A(P) and the content through which we learn said information (Talmud). While the information itself was conveyed at Sinai, the process through which the knowledge was later "reclaimed" wasn't. For examples: Yehoshua forgetting large swathes of ToSHB"A upon the death of Moshe, the midrash of Hashem showing Moshe R'Akiva and explaining that R"A's drashot were "contained" in the information handed Moshe and were not "new data," "gam zu Torah," etc. Basically Torah== Talmud, but Talmud "contains" the teaching of Torah, by and large. — Isaac Kotlicky, Jul 27 '15 at 15:09

score 6 · Answer 1 · edited Jul 05 '13 at 23:13

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See Yerushalmi Peah Perek 2 Halacha 4, Shmos Rabbah Begining Parsha 47, Vayikrah Rabbah Begining Parsha 22 where it says that it was all said to Moshe at Har Sinai.

ריב"ל אמר עליהם ועליהם כל ככל דברים הדברים מקרא משנה תלמוד ואגדה אפי' מה שתלמיד ותיק עתיד להורות לפני רבו כבר נאמר למשה בסיני

For a lot on this subject please see this and the following pages

edited Jul 05 '13 at 23:13

Menachem

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answered Apr 15 '13 at 18:08

Meir Zirkind

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Do you have any evidence that those midrashim you cite (which are identical to each other) are not clearly allegorical? Can you also source how you know it means the exact words of our talmuds/mishna/midrash and not the "highlights" or main content points of torah shebe'al peh? – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 18:26
I don't need to, if one has a complaint against someone who translates it literally he has to be the one to prove. – Meir Zirkind Apr 15 '13 at 18:30
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For reasons to suspect it is allegorical, see every other comment and answer on this page. The onus is on you. – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 18:30
Also the word להורות (which is the girsa in the yerushalmi) is odd. The girsaot of the Midrash sound much better: שואל (Exodus Rabba) or לומר (Lev. Rabba). – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 18:32
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Does this statement include parts of the Talmud which appear to be from people who lived after R Yehoshua ben Levi? – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 18:38
Does this statement include parts of the Talmud which seem to have been written in the time of the Geonim? – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Apr 15 '13 at 18:40
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@MeirZirkind Did Moshe Rabbeinu send Mishloach Manot on Purim? If not, assuming he received the entire Oral Torah including the Gemarras, why not? What about Tzom Gedeliah? Tisha B'Av, 17th of Tammuz? – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Apr 15 '13 at 18:45
@RabbiMichaelTzadok Did Avraham Avinu send Mishloach Monos? Did he keep Eiruvin which Shlomo Hamelech instituted? – Meir Zirkind Apr 15 '13 at 19:31
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@MeirZirkind Did he read parshat zachor? did he write a Torah? did he know he was going to have a son at age 100? So why did he laugh? ||| We've all heard these questions before. I don't know why you bring them up, when we are not talking about the Avos. And by the way, Avraham probably did neither of those things, which would be meaningless, not having been enacted yet. Moshe certainly did neither. – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 21:58
@DoubleAA See Rashi to Bereishis 26:6 – Michoel Apr 15 '13 at 23:35
@Michoel So? I chose my examples and noted the examples he chose carefully. – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 23:37
@DoubleAA What d'rabanon did he keep, and which not? – Michoel Apr 15 '13 at 23:38
@Michoel Why can't we hold like the Rambam, Ben Ish Hai, and other torah giants that said he only kept M'Doraitta and then only what made sense to him? – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Apr 15 '13 at 23:51
@Michoel According to Rashi: גזרות להרחקה על אזהרות שבתורה, כגון שניות לעריות ושבות לשבת: Mishloach Manos is clearly not included. As for Eruvin, you might argue that Eruv Chatzerot is included, though he probably didn't do that either, having a din of Yachid (OC 382). And before you quote Eruv Tavshilin which Rashi is probably basing himself on, see this http://parsha.blogspot.com/2011/11/did-avraham-specifically-keep-eruv.html (Note also my switch from 'probably' to 'certainly' in my previous comment.) – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 23:55
@RabbiMichaelTzadok You can "hold like" whoever you want. That doesn't take away the fact that there is a very legitimate opinion that Avraham Avinu kept "shevus leshabas". – Michoel Apr 15 '13 at 23:55
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@Michoel I'd call it a school of thought, not an opinion. And while Rashi may make something 'legitimate' (whatever that means) that doesn't make him not a minority extreme opinion. (It doesn't make him into one either.) – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 23:56
@RabbiMichaelTzadok Because 'holding' (implying psak) is a funny word to apply to this kind of historical machloket. – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 23:59
@DoubleAA I've never heard that holding implies psak. I've always heard it as the English translation for סובר or סברא. That's how its used in the Yeshivish circles that I run in. – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Apr 16 '13 at 00:08
Here is a story in Gemara Sanhedrin 100a take it as you like: R. Johanan was sitting and teaching: The Holy One, blessed be He, will bring jewels and precious stones, each 30 cubits long, and 30 cubits high, and make an engraving in them, 10 by 20 cubits, and set them up as the gates of Jerusalem, for it is written, And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles. A certain disciple derided him saying, ‘We do not find a jewel even as large as a dove's egg, yet such huge ones are to exist!’ Cont. – Meir Zirkind Apr 16 '13 at 02:36
Some time later he took a sea journey and saw the ministering angels cutting precious stones and pearls. He said unto them: ‘For what are these?’ They replied: ‘The Holy One, blessed be He, will set them up as the gates of Jerusalem.’ On his return, he found R. Johanan sitting and teaching. He said to him: ‘Expound, O Master, and it is indeed fitting for you to expound, for even as you did say, so did I myself see.’ ‘Wretch!’ he exclaimed, ‘had you not seen, you would not have believed! You deride the words of the Sages!’ – Meir Zirkind Apr 16 '13 at 02:37
@MeirZirkind If you want to quote Aggadata, how about the famous one in Mnochot about the Tagin. Moshe Rabbeinu didn't understand them, but Rabbi Akiva would expound upon them. See also the Maharal of Prague on that piece. Most notably where he says the Moshe Rabbeinu was limited in the oral torah. – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Apr 16 '13 at 04:30
@RabbiMichaelTzadok I dont believe Rambam says they kept all d'oraysas. – mevaqesh Jul 24 '15 at 23:37

score 3 · Answer 2 · edited Jul 24 '15 at 23:40

I have heard this, and not just in Chassidic circles. However I cannot give you an actual source for it, as I have never found it written in a sefer, though I typically don't read Chassidic Sichot or some of the more radical and odd Midrashim. However here is a video that lays out fairly well the logic of both sides of the debate while being a bit comical. It is short rehash of a debate that took place in a blog thread. Wherein one person made the claim that even the Avot knew and kept oral Torah, with the other side presenting the logical fallacies of that.

On a practical level Rav Treibitz (Talmid Muvhak of Rav Shternbuch and posek in Har Nof) lays out an interesting argument for the development of the Gemarra. Here is the first of I believe 20 total shiurim on the topic. Rav Triebitz gives historical background arguing for the Gemarra being developed and written rather late with final codification being done around 850CE just before the end of the Geonim.

video discussed here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot/8242 — Menachem, Apr 15 '13 at 18:34
"Rav Treibitz (Talmid Muvhak of Rav Shternbuch)" I don't know that this is true. Do you? it is true that they have a positive relationship. — mevaqesh, Jul 24 '15 at 23:41

score 0 · Answer 3 · answered Apr 15 '13 at 14:41

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My personal feeling is that, regardless of whether anyone actually made or makes this claim, it should be clear that it is nonsense.

What I have heard, and I cannot provide a source, unfortunately, is that all Torah was given to Moshe, and there is no such thing as a real "Chiddush", that is, any innovation. Any "new" insights to the Torah are really just revealing the true meaning that was previously unknown or not clearly understood.

The only possible way the claim referenced in the question can be "true" is if one stretches the literal meaning of it to mean that G-d told Moshe everything, including what we have yet to learn or uncover, including debates among rabbis not yet known to us.

In other words, if taken literally, meaning it is passed down, all rabbis living today and engaging in debate should have some written source on their bookshelves somewhere with their names in it. This would be very weird.

answered Apr 15 '13 at 14:41

Seth J

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What do you mean by your last paragraph? Clearly not all rabbis living today and engaging in debate have their name written in some sefer. – Daniel Apr 15 '13 at 15:17
@Daniel, well, that's how your question reads. "[T]he entire oral Torah in its current written form (including the Bavli, the Yerushalmi, and all of the Torah she'b'al'peh that came later was given at Har Sinai and passed down orally verbatim until it was finally written down." Is that not the claim you're asking about? – Seth J Apr 15 '13 at 15:55
Yes it is. I think I just don't understand the wording of the last paragraph. What are you trying to say? – Daniel Apr 15 '13 at 16:06
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+1. As to "all Torah was given to Moshe, and there is no such thing as a real 'Chiddush', that is, any innovation. Any 'new' insights to the Torah are really just revealing the true meaning that was previously unknown or not clearly understood", I think the Bavli in M'gila alludes to this, seeing it in a verse in Ezra, but I have the citation to neither at hand. – msh210 Apr 15 '13 at 16:11
@Daniel, I'm not sure how I can be more clear. If every bit of Torah SheBe'al Peh was passed down word for word, that would necessarily include every Devar Torah and responsa written by R' Shternbuch, R' Ovadiah Yosef, the Kaliver Rebbe, R' Schachter, R' Lichtenstein, R' Schwartz, etc. etc., along with their names. – Seth J Apr 15 '13 at 16:18
Oh yes, I see what you're saying. It's like jake's comment up above. – Daniel Apr 15 '13 at 16:26
@Daniel, that's exactly what I thought you meant in the question. If not, maybe edit? – Seth J Apr 15 '13 at 16:34
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@SethJ, yes it is. I just for some reason couldn't really understand what you had written. Chalk it up to lack of sleep. – Daniel Apr 15 '13 at 16:36
@msh210 Megillah 19b? – Double AA Apr 15 '13 at 16:40
@DoubleAA, yes, just before the mishna; thanks. (Not a verse in Ezra. I was confusing it with daf 3, which cites Ezra, but that g'mara is irrelevant here.) – msh210 Apr 15 '13 at 17:35
it is worth reading the essay here: http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=r54bbqIYAZgC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA29#v=onepage&q&f=false -- it discusses the issue brought up in the second and third paragraph of this answer, and also offers a couple answers of how it could still be a "Chiddush" if it was already told to Moshe on Sinai. – Menachem Apr 15 '13 at 19:04
Would the downvoters care to leave a comment? My point above was to demonstrate that it cannot be literally true. The Gemara does not contradict this. – Seth J Apr 16 '13 at 16:59

Talmud comes from Har Sinai?

3 Answers3