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I have been practicing my observance with a super-friendly Chabad congregation but my area, predominantly secular and Modern Orthodox, has a bunch of MO congregations that I'm very curious to visit, perhaps to taste the difference. As someone with a Chabad background, albeit a beginner, what are some things I should expect to be different?

(Also, I am going to bring a Koren Sacks siddur there instead of the Tehillat Hashem one, good idea?)

Edit: I'm curious about all aspects of difference, not just the nusach.

Dr. Shmuel
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Yosef M
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  • "Brich Hu" instead of "Amen" during Kaddish. – Shalom Jan 29 '19 at 21:08
  • Chabad siddur is very good. Are you really forced to switch? – kouty Jan 29 '19 at 21:16
  • Not really @kouty . I own both and I am indeed more used to Tehillat Hashem, but I don't expect an MO congregation to use it. I agree with with DanF's answer below, I will likely be able to pick up the right one at the shul anyway, except if they don't happen to have enough. – Yosef M Jan 29 '19 at 21:49
  • If they pray sfard, you can continue with tehilas hashem. – kouty Jan 29 '19 at 22:01
  • The answer may vary based on whether you will be attending the men’s section or the women’s section. – Alex Jan 29 '19 at 22:37
  • similar: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/20281/170 – msh210 Jan 29 '19 at 22:38
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    @Alex a good answer would cover both methinks – Double AA Jan 29 '19 at 23:57
  • I'm male but curious about both sections. – Yosef M Jan 30 '19 at 00:20
  • Many shuls will use the Art Scroll rather than the Koren siddur. The main difference in nusach Ashkenaz with English is that Koren puts the English on the right side and Art Scroll puts it on the left. This can cause some difficulty in following sometimes. I would agree that you should use the siddur provided by the shul. Check before you come. Depending on the shul, there are those that use the Yitzchak Yair Ashkenaz nusach without English. – sabbahillel Jan 30 '19 at 01:20
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    Welcome to MiYodeya Yosef and thanks for this first question. Great to have you learn with us! – mbloch Jan 30 '19 at 03:29
  • You currently daven from the Siddur Tehillat Hashem, and honestly I would consult your rabbi before just switching nusachot from Ari to Ashkenaz. He might instruct you to keep using Nusach Ari even in the MO shul, because it's "your" nusach; the one you've been davening all this time. If you do end up davening with the Siddur Tehillat Hashem, remember that the Kedushah is different from Nusach Ashkenaz so make sure to recite Kedushah the way the congregation does as is required by halacha. – ezra Jan 30 '19 at 03:50
  • the mechitza may be lower than you're used to in a chabad synagogue -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechitza#Proper_height_of_synagogue_mechitza – Menachem Jan 30 '19 at 05:16
  • @sabbahillel Art Scroll and Koren are still in "the fight" and I gather that Koren is beginning to take over. (Separate discussion as to the merits of either one. I think with the founder (can't recall his name) of Art Scroll gone, I think Koren will quickly progress.) But, believe it or not, many "older" MO shuls are still sticking to Birnbaum. – DanF Jan 30 '19 at 14:36
  • Modern Orthodox is a term that has kind of lost its descriptive meaning. It spans a huge spectrum of practices and levels of observance. Depending on who you ask, it can include people who "eat dairy out" and people who would never consider such a thing. It can include congregations where women lead certain parts of davening (e.g. pesukei d'zimra) and congregations with separate kiddushes for men and women. It can include congregations where people wear jeans on Shabbos and congregations where people wear black hats and suits. In short, any answer to this question is going to be more about... – Daniel Jan 30 '19 at 15:48
  • how Chabad synagogues are different from other synagogues than about how MO synagogues specifically are different. – Daniel Jan 30 '19 at 15:48
  • Thanks for the insight @Daniel. My Chabad shul has only a handful of resident Chabad chassidim, everyone else is an "outreach" member, and their observance varies hugely. I guess it might be practically more liberal than many MO congregations. – Yosef M Jan 30 '19 at 17:53
  • @YosefM Yes, that is often the case. Chabad minyanim tend to attract people with a wide range of levels of observance. Other Orthodox communities tend to be more homogenous. – Daniel Jan 30 '19 at 19:22
  • @DanF His name is Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz ztz''l. – ezra Jan 31 '19 at 18:25

2 Answers2

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You won't find too many differences other than some changes in the Nusach and the siddur.

Most MO shuls tend to be Nusach Ashkenaz from what I've seen, but you should inquire. That's not a given rule. I don't recommend bringing a siddur with you unless you are personally comfortable with the Koren siddur and can't readily transfer to another one. My reasoning:

  • The shul has its own siddurim usually in ample supply, so there's no need to bring your own
  • If the shul is not in an eruv on Shabbat, then you definitely should not bring your own siddur
  • You may get confused with finding the proper page that the cong. is on if you use a different siddur than the rest of them do

The tunes the cong. sing may or may not be familiar to what you’re used to. It depends where you go. Some do more congregational singing than others.

MO shuls tend to start much earlier than Chab"d shuls on Shabbat. In the U.S., that time can range from 8 - 9 AM in most places. But, it's most likely not starting at 10AM as many Chaba"d shuls do.

If you're a guest, you may or may not find the "open friendliness" that I've found Chaba"d tends to offer. Some MO shuls have people that will spot you as a guest immediately and you may get numerous lunch offers. Others, have no clue that you came in or cared either way. Pick a "small" place, if you can. It will be a less intimidating start.

I will say that MO shuls have changed significantly since the 70s. In U.S., it seems that philosophy and demographics have trended towards being halachically stricter. Many men in MO shuls wear black hats, now whereas that wasn't as much the trend until about 20 years ago. I've seen a bit of a trend towards separate men / women seating at meals and even at lectures. My point is that there's no set "standard" - at least less so now than there was 30 - 40 years ago.

(If you're somewhat curious about the MO trend, Rabbi Riskin's Lincoln Square shul in NYC was considered MO when he was there. I don't know if it would still be considered that way, now. Even so, I understand that it has attracted more of a "yeshivish" crowd.)

In short, I recommend contacting the shul's rabbi and asking some basic questions and introducing yourself. It will provide you with answers and it helps if the rabbi, at least, knows that you will be a guest there. It also makes it easier for you vs. entering "blindly".

DanF
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Things you’ll find in the shuls you would like to visit (unlike Chabad):

  • Congregants don’t wear a gartel (waistbands)
  • The pronunciation of cholam (Chabad substitutes it with a tzere)
  • Typically only say the prescribed Kaddeshim (Kaddish) in their respective siddur (Chabad customarily will add pieces of liturgy or other things to say additional Kaddish)
  • Even unmarried chazzan for Shacharit will don a tallit
  • Even an unmarried ba’al koreh (Torah reader) will don a tallit
  • The chazzan will ordinarily don a tallit for afternoon and evening services
  • Haggbah is done differently than at Chabad. (As you’ve probably been accustomed to at Chabad, after the Torah is lifted it is laid back on the bimmah, both ends are rolled together and then raised again by the nominee who retreats to his designated chair to have gelilah done. At virtually all other synagogues who use the same kind of Torah casing, after the scroll was displayed to the congregation the nominee retreats to his chair while still holding the scroll open.)

(Will try to update as more come to mind. Feel free to add any.)

Glorfindel
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Oliver
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  • I haven't been to a Chaba"d minyan in a while. But, perhaps an item to add is that few MO congregants wear the Tallit over their heads. – DanF Jan 30 '19 at 14:21
  • @Oliver while I accepted the other answer because it's more broad, your answer is also very helpful, and I would appreciate any further additions or comments to it - thanks! – Yosef M Jan 30 '19 at 17:55
  • @DanF However IME many MO congregants at various synagogues (of theirs) do cover their heads after Barchu, which is fairly common with Chabad too. – Oliver Jan 30 '19 at 18:15
  • @YosefM I don't think that you can accept more than one answer. This answer adds some very good info that mine doesn't. I think that the best that you can do is place a bounty with the intent to reward this answer, as well. – DanF Jan 31 '19 at 16:00
  • @Oliver Agreed. Which is why I stated in my answer that the nature and practices in current MO shuls have changed a lot. There aren't too many left as far as I know. "Young Israel" started as a MO type shul years ago. Since about 30 years ago, many of them are yeshivish. There's been a general trend to become "more frum" and "stricter". (I could write a paper as to why that's happened.) Many people have been starting to denounce Yeshiva University and their graduates! I don't get it. – DanF Jan 31 '19 at 16:06
  • @DanF I don't think I'm at the stage where I can place a bounty. My intent was to ask Oliver to keep adding information to this answer since it is also very useful, even if it's not the accepted one. I did upvote this one, fwiw. – Yosef M Jan 31 '19 at 17:08
  • @YosefM Keep this Q in mind for when you do have enough points to offer the bounty. Belated welcome to MY. Very nice starter question. – DanF Jan 31 '19 at 17:12
  • @oliver can you give an example of somewhere chabad substitutes a cholam with a tzere? I consider myself chabad and maybe I just need an outsiders look but I don't find that to be true. – mmc99 Feb 06 '19 at 09:31
  • @mmc99 Since I’m certain of this, I’d ask the opposite: In which Chabad establishment haven’t you heard this? Listen to R. MM Schneersohn on YouTube speaking/singing Hebrew (or for that matter, any other Chabadtzker who had Chabad schooling). – Oliver Feb 06 '19 at 13:32
  • @Oliver just to make sure we're not disagreeing on the pronunciation of a cholam if its pronounced oy or like the English letter O – mmc99 Feb 06 '19 at 20:58
  • @Oliver https://youtu.be/WpieB5PzjrY?t=76 I believe you that your certain however me growing up chabad and living it till now I am not, would you be able to please give me a clear example where you do see it happening? – mmc99 Feb 06 '19 at 21:26
  • @mmc99 Tutorial/outreach could be different. Listen how the Rebbe says the word “אחותי” here @ 1:17 (and then every other cholam afterwards). – Oliver Feb 06 '19 at 21:59
  • @Oliver it's fairly difficult to find a clear recording of the rebbe but there around 1:23 you can clearly hear "מקום" with a cholam. I brought that video because it is very clear (though I don't understand why outreach would be any different) I will try to find another clear video that is not outreach. – mmc99 Feb 06 '19 at 22:18
  • @mmc99 Do you mean 1:20/21 at the word “במקומו”? (I hear -clearly- bimkaymay.) – Oliver Feb 06 '19 at 22:23
  • @Oliver no sorry it's past 23 closer to 25/26 – mmc99 Feb 06 '19 at 22:36
  • @mmc99 Yep, caught it. Indeed, there he pronounces the cholam ‘oy’. I’d call it an exception bec. most of the time he pronounced it ‘ay’. Don’t rely on my word, listen to a handful of audio yourself and decide how he usually pronounces it. – Oliver Feb 07 '19 at 00:42
  • @Oliver I listened @1:17, the opening pasak of the ma’amar. It’s definitely not a Tzere pronunciation. It’s Cholam. There’s actually a very good You Tube video from Machon Shiloh discussing the proper pronunciation of Cholam versus Kamatz you might find interesting. I would have to dig around to find the link. – Yaacov Deane Aug 09 '20 at 18:21