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The Talmud and Geonim seem to speak about ta'am and it's ability to transfer as being a very physical process. The literature reads as if one would be able to taste the transfer of flavor from one vessel to another. The Rambam flat out says that if one isn't sure if taste transferred, one should taste the mixture and see if taste transferred.

Mishneh Torah: Ma'achalot Assurot - Chapter 15:2

What is implied? When the fat of the kidneys3 falls into beans and becomes dissolved, the beans should be tasted. If the taste of fat cannot be detected, they are permitted. If [not only] the taste, [but also] the substance of the fat is present, they are forbidden according to Scriptural Law. If the flavor could be detected, but there is no substance, they are forbidden by Rabbinic Law.

ב כיצד חלב הכליות שנפל לתוך הגריסין ונמוח הכל טועמין את הגריסין אם לא נמצא בהן טעם חלב הרי אלו מותרין ואם נמצא בהם טעם חלב והיה בהן ממשו הרי אלו אסורין מן התורה נמצא בהן טעמו ולא היה בהן ממשו הרי אלו אסורין מדברי סופרים:

However, many modern discussions do not seem to speak about ta'am in this way. I have never had a Rav suggest that I taste something to see if it's acceptable. Rather in my experience they speak about it in more of a metaphysical sense and say to just throw everything away in a case of doubt.

Their words don't seem to be discussing a real physical entity, rather it sounds more like speaking about the transfer of purity or impurity, which can only be measured in the metaphysical/spiritual realm. An example of this would be speaking about flavor transfer without asking the question whether the material absorbed flavor to begin with, or checking to see if any flavor actually transferred.

So which is it? Is ta'am a physical entity that can be measured by our tongues, or it it a metaphysical entity that we can't quantify or interact with in a physical way?

Aaron
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    I've never seen anyone treat it like a metaphysical entity. What are you talking about? Taste is taste. (Why does everything have to be a every modern rabbi vs Talmud and Geonim presentation??) – Double AA Jul 17 '18 at 18:29
  • Possible duplicate? https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26285/blias-in-todays-pots-and-pans – Double AA Jul 17 '18 at 18:29
  • @DoubleAA https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/30669/9045 – Aaron Jul 17 '18 at 18:43
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    I see. Your claim that every modern discussion takes it that way is well founded. – Double AA Jul 17 '18 at 18:45
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    Can it be both? – robev Jul 17 '18 at 18:47
  • @DoubleAA Sorry, hyperbole is hard grained into me. I've updated the question – Aaron Jul 17 '18 at 18:50
  • Simple - the earlier generations thought that physical taste transferred, and when the later generations found no evidence of physical transfer they made it into a metaphysical thing. – Alex Jul 17 '18 at 18:53
  • @Aaron How is the link you put in your comment not an answer to this question? – Salmononius2 Jul 17 '18 at 18:55
  • modern discussion seem this way becouse we use law (and president) to see if the taam is there and not scientific tests, and often the law uses the maximum place the taam can be – hazoriz Jul 17 '18 at 18:57
  • @Salmononius2 So write it as an answer. Although the answer leaves the question open. According to one modern opinion it's physical, according to one modern opinion it's metaphysical. – Aaron Jul 17 '18 at 19:26
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    Source for these made up many modern discussions? as far as I know the rule still is that if it can't be tasted it's not a Halakhoc problem and no one has ever argued on that ever. It's not just the Rambam who says it. It's the Shulchan Arukh too. Explicitly. (And everyone else ever, also explicitly, if you'll let me slightly hyperbolize for a moment.) – Double AA Jul 17 '18 at 19:35
  • @DoubleAA This question sounds like the batel beshishim "test". One thing I'm curious of is that everyone's taste standard is different. Whereas in doubtful situations, they say to taste. What if one can taste the meat and another can't? Whose standard do we follow? – DanF Jul 17 '18 at 21:00
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    @DanF How to verify if something did impart positive flavor is a separate question. The Gemara talks about giving it to a kfeila (prob a chef of some sort) to taste. – Double AA Jul 17 '18 at 21:24
  • Everyone agrees that it used to be based on taste. At some point the Maharam Padawa ruled that we can't trust the taste testers anymore and we just assume the worst case scenario and give it the 60 x treatment. This was quoted by Ramma and ruled with by all authorities since. Kaf Hachaim ruled this way too. Chacham Ovadia in his Halichos Olam didn't like Ashkenizing up the halcha, but conceded one may not rely on tasting for a biblical prohibition, only for a rabbinic one. – user6591 Jul 18 '18 at 10:31
  • @user6591 you mean it still is determined by taste accd to everyone ever but the custom in many communities is to be strict not to trust certain people's ability to determine if it has taste of not in most cases, either bc we're not sure they are such an expert taster or bc we think they might lie. (It is not a universal rule. Some just don't trust gentiles, for instance, or are willing to rely on tasting in Bedieved cases or Hefsed, or when combined with other leniencies.) – Double AA Jul 18 '18 at 16:18
  • @Double Custom seems to be a confusing word that is either too connected or too disconnected from halacha imho that I would abstain from using it. And I wouldn't say 'strict not to trust certain people's ability etc' I would say strict not to trust anyones ability etc'. But otherwise yes, that's what I meant. – user6591 Jul 18 '18 at 16:29
  • @user is anyone really strict not to trust anyone's ability? What if he's a frum professional favor chemist tasting heter to decide if you have to wait 6 hours? I can't imagine too many people would be machmir on that, and if so it would be a very recent chumra. That's Teimat Kefeila Yisrael on Heter for a Chashash Derabanan. I'm sure you'll find me someone who is machmir but I don't think it's appropriate to say there's no room out there for trusting different people differently the way your original comment reads in its universality – Double AA Jul 18 '18 at 18:04
  • @Double The Jew wouldn't need that amount of accreditations to be believed. I was simply continuing the OP's conversation of actual issur. The Shach already pointed out cases of hetter that any Jew would be believed. – user6591 Jul 18 '18 at 18:33

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