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To what extent, if any, does the practice of bathing in hot water before Shabbos override the prohibition of bathing during the Nine Days? I ask specifically regarding Ashkenazi practice (I guess for Sefardim this is a non-issue), and for one who is generally strict about bathing before Shabbos.

Loewian
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yoel
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    yoel, welcome to Judaism.SE, and thanks very much for the timely question! I look forward to seeing you around. – Isaac Moses Aug 05 '11 at 21:02
  • Thanks! To clarify, I meant stringent regarding bathing before Shabbos. – yoel Aug 05 '11 at 21:16
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    @loewian I don't understand the purpose of this retagging. Aren't nearly all questions on this site about a contradiction between two apparent values? Who is searching for such a group? – Double AA Jul 18 '19 at 17:39

2 Answers2

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The Aruch HaShulchan writes (551:36):

ודע שבדורינו התחילו לזלזל ברחיצה בחמין בערב שבת חזון, ומרגלא בפומייהו: שמי שרוחץ כל ערב שבת – רשאי גם בשבת זו. ואינו כן, שהרי רבינו הרמ"א לא התיר רק חפיפת הראש, כמו שכתבתי. ותמיד היו המרחצאות נעולים בערב שבת חזון. וזה לא כביר התחילו לזלזל, ועתידים ליתן את הדין. ופשוט הוא דלרפואה – מותר לרחוץ בחמין, אפילו בערב תשעה באב.

Nowadays people are tarnishing the custom to refrain from washing with warm water on erev Shabbos Hazon, thinking that if they use warm water every erev Shabbos they can on this erev Shabbos too -- but they are not correct -- the Rema only allowed washing the head with warm water, (but not the whole body)... and people who tarnish this custom are going to pay the price in the future.

Curiouser
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    It's worth noting that many pulpit rabbis seem to be more lenient than the Aruch HaShulchan about some of these matters. The AS also thinks that one should wear weekday clothes on Shabbos Hazon -- see sif 11 there -- which is not the common practice that I notice. – Curiouser Aug 05 '11 at 21:32
  • That seems stranger to me as I was under the impression that we certainly suspend any mourning prohibitions during Shabbos itself. – yoel Aug 05 '11 at 21:39
  • The AS writes that since nowadays (in his time) our weekday clothes look the same as Shabbos clothes -- the only difference is quality/cost, then we wear weekday clothes. In the old days (and presumably for certain Hasidim), when the Shabbos clothes were a totally different style and would be noticed if absent, then they would continue to wear Shabbos clothes. – Curiouser Aug 05 '11 at 21:54
  • So for one who wears black and white during the week and only wears a nicer suit and hat for Shabbos, this seems to apply. What about one who wears jeans during the week? What about one who is particular to wear black and white on monday and thursday? – yoel Aug 05 '11 at 21:59
  • He doesn't discuss the application beyond what I tried to describe, but perhaps you could apply the logic that people who wear "business casual" during the week and a suit on Shabbos should continue to wear the suit on Shabbos Hazon because it would look recognizably different, not just in cost, but in type. – Curiouser Aug 05 '11 at 22:14
  • Do you also only bathe with water drawn from a well? – avi Jun 18 '12 at 07:32
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Just saw this today. But R. David Bar-Hayim argues that not bathing is breaking a halacha for the sake of a minhag.

That is l'chavod shabbat is much strong positive halacha, then the minhag of not bathing during the first 9 days of the month of av.

avi
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  • The Rav's points are wise and insightful, but what of the principle that Jewish customs are equivalent to the Torah? Presumably the Rav is adjuring against Sefardim and Mizrachim adopting the Ashkenazi minhag out of excessive piety - otherwise it is difficult to understand his position. – yoel Aug 07 '11 at 04:50
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    -1: David Bar-Hayim is not speaking specifically to Sepharadim and Mizrachim. He's trying to invent a "minhag eretz yisrael", and some of his psakim in doing so are directly intended to uproot Minhag Ashkenaz, for example this one permitting kitniot on pesach for all Jews. If you have any respect at all for the concept of mesorah, you should ignore what he says. – Chanoch Aug 07 '11 at 05:05
  • I confess not to understand at all the Rav's position. To denigrate our customs as "meaningless" is extremely troubling and in fact contrary to the essence of the Torah. – yoel Aug 07 '11 at 05:41
  • @Yoel, a Minhag is not equivalent to Torah. A Minhag is like 'halacha'.. Meaning, you can't just ditch them for the heck of it, and you must revere them. Any minhag that goes directly against a halacha is null and void. (see Or Zarua 1:7). – avi Aug 07 '11 at 11:44
  • @Chanoch The same can be said about all the 'new rulings' coming from the Askanim. Anyone who has any respect for Mesorah should be ignoring anything the Jewish press reports the 'gedolim' today to be saying. It would be wise not to speak Lashon harah about people you likely have never even met. – avi Aug 07 '11 at 11:47
  • @Avi, how then do you understand "Minhag Yisroel Torah he"? – yoel Aug 07 '11 at 18:20
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    @Yoel The same way I understand statements which suggest that any particular mitzvah is the same as keeping the entire Torah. They are not halachicaly true, only hashkaficly. You can't say that since you are wearing Tzizit, you don't have to daven. Or because you are learning Torah you don't have to bench. – avi Aug 08 '11 at 04:39
  • You can read in the rishonim how they would often say that such and such minhag violates halacha and should not be done anymore. – avi Aug 08 '11 at 04:41
  • The problem here, is that there is no change in metziut in the last ~500 years. The rama saw the minhag not to bathe, and he was aware of the mitzva of kavod shabbat and still felt it was OK. So maybe it's not such a contradiction after all. – Double AA Jun 17 '12 at 03:53
  • @doubleaa are you serious? Indoor plumbing did not exist 500 years ago. People might go weeks without bathing. – avi Jun 18 '12 at 07:20
  • @avi So you agree that the mitzva of kavod shabbat is not so fixed in its application. Your argument only holds if you think that one is 100% obligated to wash very certain parts of his body with water etc. – Double AA Jun 18 '12 at 07:22
  • @doubleaa When keeping clean is easy to do, you always have to do it. When keeping clean can be hard or dangerous or impossible you don't. Its not that complicated. – avi Jun 18 '12 at 07:35
  • @avi So for thousands of years Jews didn't bathe on Fridays because of Ones? – Double AA Jun 18 '12 at 07:37
  • @doubleaa Not every single Friday of the year, no. When they could, they did, when they couldn't they didn't. – avi Jun 18 '12 at 07:42
  • @avi So your saying not that there is an obligation every week and sometimes they are Ones, but rather that there is an obligation to do so whenever there are no reasons not to? – Double AA Jun 18 '12 at 07:45
  • @DoubleAA I'm really not sure what you are asking. But it's really very simple. You must show honor to Shabat. Today, in the world of indoor plumbing where most people find it disgusting if you go a few days without showering, then taking a shower before every shabbat is part of that kavod/honor. In a world where you only bathe (Not sure that they even had showers) when you are tremendously filthy then you only bathe for Shabbat when it makes sense to, and skipping one shabbat for Tisha B'av is not a lack of honor. – avi Jun 18 '12 at 12:18
  • @avi You clearly agree this mitzva is completely subjective and flexible. So on Fridays where one is accustomed to not bathe, one makes sure to do other things lekavod shabbat. On Fridays where one is accustomed to bathe, one makes sure not to miss it. I agree, it's that simple. – Double AA Jun 18 '12 at 14:27
  • @DoubleAA I can not cut up my shirt into shredded pieces and declare it "Kavod shabbat" because it's "completely subjective and flexible." So no, I do not agree it's "completly subjective and flexibile", I do think however it is based on the norms of the society you live in, and not written in stone for all generations the exact same way. The two things are not the same. – avi Jun 18 '12 at 16:08
  • @avi But it does mean the local customs can play a huge role in defining it. In fact, saying a local custom contradicts it is almost definitionaly impossible. – Double AA Jun 18 '12 at 23:26
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    @DoubleAA But what is the custom? To shower before every single Shabbat for the honour of Shabbat except for this one during the year? Why does the custom of mourning override the halacha of honouring shabbat the way you do every other week? In the times of the Rama people would bathe special for Shabbat, but not every single shabbat. So Shabbat hazon was not singled out. – avi Jun 19 '12 at 06:31
  • @avi Nothing is being overridden. The custom is what the custom is, even if one shabbat is more singled out than others. Does that make it less of a custom? – Double AA Jun 19 '12 at 06:33
  • @DoubleAA Would you allow someone to continue a custom to eat Treif Chinese food on Christmas eve? They are specifically NOT giving Kavod to Shabbat for the sake of the custom of Mourning. If you want to argue that they are giving Kavod to SHabbat by not showering, then I would have to ask for sources, because that is not what people I know are thinking. They are thinking that mourning is more important and they are not allowed at all to clean themselves. – avi Jun 19 '12 at 06:48
  • @avi I don't think their goal is to insult Shabbat. They just think "Oh well. I guess I can't do that this week. I better find some other way to give honor to shabbat." It's just like any other external pressure that makes you do things differently. The mitzva of kavod shabbat is dependent on one's circumstance; you agree to that. The custom doesn't contradict the mitzva; it just changes the circumstances which then changes how the mitzva is implemented. In all cases you have fulfilled the mitzva to the fullest extent which is defined based on your circumstances. – Double AA Jun 19 '12 at 06:56
  • My point is that if you accept the custom as binding, it does not logically lead to a contradiction due to the flexible nature of the obligation of kavod shabbat. Would we have instituted this custom originally? I don't know. But now that it's here it does not lead to a contradiction and therefore should be upheld. (I assume here that customs are binding until proven otherwise. I think that's pretty reasonable.) – Double AA Jun 19 '12 at 06:57
  • @DoubleAA People will shower if they have an important business meeting, but not for Shabbat. Just think about that. – avi Jun 19 '12 at 11:34
  • @avi I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about someone who doesn't shower the whole 9 days. They might be acting inconsistently, but that doesn't support the psak you brough which uprooted the entire minhag. (FTR I think quick cold showers are not only permitted all 9 days just like washing dirt off your hands, but they are obligatory for everyone else's benefit, especially in hot desert climates.) And cf. http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/5758/759 – Double AA Jun 20 '12 at 04:48
  • @DoubleAA How can you not be talking about them? The Minhag is that you shower if its going to cause you financial loss. You won't find anybody today who says you must not shower rather than possibly lose out financially. Obviously, you should try to postpone the meeting, but if you can't, you can shower. This isn't about individuals acting inconsistently. It's about a minhag which is no longer halachically viable. – avi Jun 20 '12 at 06:00
  • Just read the question you linked to, and the question proves my point. The asker knows that you are allowed a "heter" for work, but has no idea about the issue of Kavod Shabbat. The practice has caused a person to not only avoid a mitzvah, but to be unaware of it's existence in the equation. – avi Jun 20 '12 at 06:06
  • @avi First of all, I seriously doubt Shalom, the only holder of a gold badge for [tag:halacha], has no idea about Kavod Shabbat. Second, serious financial loss is more chamur than a bittul asei, but not as chamur as a lav (Shulchan Aruch OC 656). Finally, I think you'd be surprised just how many people are that serious about not showering the whole 9 days. You live in Israel. Take a trip to Kikar Shabbat in about a month and let me know what your nose thinks. – Double AA Jun 20 '12 at 06:13