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I was recently referred to a popular Chabad Rabbi and towards the end of the lecture he just totally shocked me. He started claiming that the Rebbe is moshiach, potentially never died, could get resurrected, etc. I couldn't believe I was hearing this from an orthodox Rabbi.

So in short, my question is, does him claiming that the Rebbe is moshiach move him into the heretical territory?

YFYF
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  • Possible duplicate https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/38340/759 – Double AA Jun 05 '18 at 21:15
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    @DoubleAA Note your comment there. – Alex Jun 05 '18 at 21:46
  • According to many Chaba"dnikers that I've spoken to, the Rebbe z"l was aware that some people were referring that he was or hinting that he should be the Mashiach, and I understand that he was upset by this accolade. Thus, now that he has passed (except for those that believe that he has not), it seems that those that still think of him as Mashiach, seems to me, that they dishonoring him even after his death. – DanF Jun 05 '18 at 22:00
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    @DanF I wish it were that simple – ezra Jun 05 '18 at 22:41
  • @ezra If the college campus rabbis, the boys distributing Shabbat flyers near the subway, and the local Chabbad rabbis in my neighborhood (have to admit - I'm not sure why we need 3 Chaba"d offices within about 5 mile radius) are indications, it seems that the Mashiach-nicks are a major minority. I can't say as to what happens internally at 770 or elsewhere in the country or rest of the world. – DanF Jun 06 '18 at 02:15
  • @DanF I don't know how familiar you are with Chabad politics, but even those who do not believe the Rebbe is currently Messiah believe he could or possibly could have been the Messiah. The entire Meshichist thing is VERY common in Chabad, making up what I would say about 60% of the movement. Even those who do not profess to be Meshichists openly may be closet-Meshichists, as they believe revealing this would turn people away from Chabad. It's a "don't-ask-don't-tell" situation. You'd be surprised how many Meshichists there actually are in Chabad. – ezra Jun 06 '18 at 02:46
  • belief in mashiach is a fundamental belief in Judaism. If someone thinks a person fits the description of the rambam to be cheskas mashiach (presumed mashiach) there is nothing heretical about such a belief. It would simple be unverifiable until after all of the actions that the rambam speaks about were completed and thus showing such an individual was in fact "mashiach vadai" (absolutely mashiach). – Dude Jun 07 '18 at 18:13
  • @Dude but what if they think someone who doesn't match the Rambam's description is bechezkas Mashiach (eg. someone dead)? Is that heresy? That's what the question is about. – Double AA Jun 07 '18 at 20:44
  • the gemara says that someone who passed away can be mashiach and the rambam never says that someone who passed away cannot be mashiach. Making the claim that this belief is heresy is nothing more than soneh al yisroel and a denial of the words of the Talmud. – Dude Jun 08 '18 at 03:34
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    @Dude Actually the gemara does not say this. You're misleading or misunderstanding what the actual gemara was talking about. They were asking what type of person could have been moshiach and bring up a list of people who could have been even though they are deceased. The conversation was about what level did a person need to be, not oh even though he died he could still be moshiach. FYI, I learned this part of Sanhedrin personally, perhaps you should too. This is the way my Rav teaches it as well. – YFYF Jun 10 '18 at 03:48

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Is saying "the Rebbe is (was?) Mashiach" worse than saying there will be no future Mashiach at all?

Sanhedrin 99a

ר' הילל אומר אין להם משיח לישראל שכבר אכלוהו בימי חזקיה

R. Hillel said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel, because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah. (Soncino translation)

Was R. Hillel a heretic? Though the Talmud immediately cites R. Yoseph as strongly rejecting R. Hillel's view, it does not say that it is heretical. In fact Rashi there explains R. Yosef's outburst as:

ימחול לו הקב"ה שאמר דברים אשר לא כן

God should forgive him for saying things that are not true.

It seems clear from Rashi that the problem was that the statement was false, not that it was heretical.

Indeed several rishonim (e.g. R. Joseph Albo in the beginning of Sefer Haikkarim, R. Isaiah the Younger in his commentary to Sanhedrin) cite this as a proof against Rambam that disbelief in Mashiach is heretical, because it is inconceivable that R. Hillel was a heretic.

I saw that R. Yehuda Herzl Henkin has a responsum on this question and he cites the same Talmudic passage as evidence that it is not heretical.

Shu"t Benei Vanim 4:26

מה שרבים מחסידיו מדמים שהגאון רממ"ש ז"ל הוא מלך המשיח הוא הבל ושטות אבל איני יודע איזו מינות ואפיקורסות יש בזה הלא הם מצפים למשיח ומאי איכפת לן שלדעתם הטועה כבר היה ומת ועתיד לחיות שוב ולמלוך סוף סוף הם מצפים למשיח שיבוא ועדיפא מרבי הילל במסכת סנהדרין דף צ"ח עמוד ב' שאמר אין משיח לישראל שכבר אכלוהו בימי חזקיה עכ"ל ולא נידון על כך כאפיקורס ומה שהם טועים בזהות המשיח אינו אלא כמי שמדמה לעצמו שהמשיח לא יהיה אלא מי שיש לו שיער אדום וששוקל כך וכך שכל אלה הם דברי הבל ושטות אבל אפיקורסות אין ולכן בטועים אלה אם הם מקפידים במצוות אין חשש לאכול משחיטתם ושאר העניינים שהזכיר במכתבו

That which many of his Hasidim imagine that the gaon R. Menachem Mendel Schneerson of blessed memory is the King Messiah is nonsense and folly, but I don't know any heresy that is involved in this. Do they not yearn for the Messiah? So who cares that according to their mistaken ideas he has already come and died and will in the future live again and reign? At the end of the day they yearn for the Messiah to come. And it is better than R. Hillel in tractate Sanhedrin 98b who said "there is no Messiah for Israel because it was already used up in the times of Hezekiah", and he was not judged to be a heretic on account of this. And that which they are mistaken in the identity of the Messiah is merely like someone who imagines to himself that the Messiah will only be someone who has red hair or weighs a certain amount which is certainly nonsense and folly but not heresy. Therefore, when it comes to these mistakers, if they are careful about mitzvot there is no concern with eating from their slaughter or any of the other things that he mentioned in his letter.

Alex
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  • I see you referred to the sefer as Bnei Vanim which I understand, but the author referredto it as Bnei Banim(per my correspondence with him,very similar to Aruch Hashulchan I would assume – sam Feb 24 '21 at 14:47
  • No they say that the rebbe was and still is moshiach etc and will come back to life in a physical way to lead us out of exile, and I believe it's widely accepted that in the meantime he's not truly passed away since the righteous are still considered physically alive, although the degree of that is questionable, I've met one person who said he was never even buried, and in the same room was anther person from the chevruh kawdeeshuh who said he personally knows the people who did the burial, so it's not just one opinion there's many different views etc – B''H Bi'ezras -- Boruch Hashem Feb 24 '21 at 19:17