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The Oruch HaShulchan O. Ch. 132 (1) points out that Chazal did not institute to say “kedusha” at Maariv. Indeed we do not say “kedusha” at Maariv; but on Motzoei Shabbos we do say ואתה קדוש וכ׳ in what is called the “Kedusha Desidra”. (It is also said any time there is a post-Shmoneh-Esrei Nakh study (Tehillim 91, Esther, and Eikha are the three currently practiced examples for Maariv; at other prayers it's Tehillim 145/20)).

Normally in the “Kedusha Desidra”, the verses of the kedusha in Hebrew (e.g. קדוש קדוש קדוש ה׳ צבא.ות וכ׳) are said aloud.

I am informed that there is a (yekkische) minhag not to say them aloud on Motzoei Shabbos. Is the fact that normally Chazal did not institute to say “kedusha” at Maariv the source of this minhag?

Avrohom Yitzchok
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  • It's not just Motzaei Shabbat. It's any time there is a post-Shmoneh-Esrei Nakh study (Tehillim 91, Esther, and Eikha are the three currently practiced examples for Maariv; at other prayers it's Tehillim 145/20). That's why it's called diSidra. – Double AA Mar 06 '18 at 16:12
  • @DoubleAA but it's sometimes after pre-Shemoneh-Esrei Nakh study (musaf on Chol Hamoed and Rosh Chodesh, mincha on Shabbos and Yom Tov, neilah on Y"K). You can articulate the musaf and neilah cases as after shacharis/mincha, but as far as I know there was never a custom to daven mincha immediately after musaf on Shabbos and Yom Tov. – Heshy Mar 06 '18 at 16:33
  • @DoubleAA Thank you. I have incorporated your comment into the question. The minhag was reported as applying on Motzoei Shabbos. It would be interesting if it has been observed on the other occasions. – Avrohom Yitzchok Mar 06 '18 at 16:35
  • @Heshy Yes indeed. That was imprecise of me. I was thinking of only Shacharit and Maariv. (Shabbat Mincha was prayed following the afternoon Drasha. That's the important point here: where they did the study. For Shacharit and Maariv it's after the Amida.) – Double AA Mar 06 '18 at 16:38
  • @DoubleAA "Shabbat Mincha was prayed following the afternoon Drasha" and Yom Tov too? (It's completely reasonable to have one, I've just never heard of a Yom Tov afternoon drasha as a fixed practice.) – Heshy Mar 06 '18 at 16:43
  • @Heshy Yes you have. Mincha directly follows the study session. – Double AA Mar 06 '18 at 16:44
  • @DoubleAA I imagine וקורין ושונין as just everyone sitting in the beis medrash learning whatever they want, like you see now. If you want to correlate this kedusha to Nach specifically, either my mental picture has to be wrong or you have to assert that someone in the beis medrash would definitely be learning Nach. That's an assumption that nowadays often fails, unfortunately. – Heshy Mar 08 '18 at 13:48

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The “Tefiloh Sefas Yisroel” is a nusaḥ Ashkenaz siddur dedicated to the memory of the Bad Homburg Jewish community. Minhogim are incorporated into the rubrics. For Motzoei Shabbos the text reads:

בעל תפלה [בקול] וקהל [בלחש] תהלים כב:ד

 וְאַתָּ֥ה קָד֑וֹשׁ י֝וֹשֵׁ֗ב תְּהִלּ֥וֹת יִשְׂרָאֵֽל:

ישעיה ו:ג

וְקָרָ֨א זֶ֤ה אֶל־זֶה֙ וְאָמַ֔ר

בעל תפלה וקהל

קָד֧וֹשׁ ׀ קָד֛וֹשׁ קָד֖וֹשׁ יְיָ֣ צְבָא֑וֹת מְלֹ֥א כָל־הָאָ֖רֶץ כְּבוֹדֽוֹ:

בעל תפלה [בקול] וקהל [בלחש]

וּמְקַבְּלִין דֵּין מִן־דֵּין וְאָמְרִין:

which seems to indicate that the Chazzan and the Kohol say the verses of Kedushoh at the same volume. The text of the rubric here is the same as for Shacharis. Therefore it is most likely the verses of Kedushoh were not said quietly (בלחש).

So to say the pesukim quietly on Motzoei Shabbos was not the the minhag in Bad Homburg.

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Avrohom Yitzchok
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