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The Shulchan Aruch holds that one may borrow and make a brachah on someone else's Tallis without their permission provided that you put it back the way you found it (OC 14:4).

In the previous halachah, though (14:3), he held that if you borrow a Tallis that is missing tzitzis you only have to string it after thirty days, and even then only because of mar'is ayin, as the passuk says "your garment" and not that of someone else. Therefore only talleisim that belong to you are obligated in tzitzis. Why don't we make the same derashah in 14:4 to exclude a borrowed Tallis from the mitzvah of tzitzis?

DonielF
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  • Who says we don't make that Drasha there too? – Double AA Jan 23 '17 at 22:19
  • related http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/28898/759 http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/16862/759 – Double AA Jan 23 '17 at 22:21
  • @DoubleAA It's permissible. Necessarily we don't make the derashah that says it's not permissible. – DonielF Jan 23 '17 at 22:22
  • Wait what drasha said something is not permissible? I see a drasha that says something is not obligatory. – Double AA Jan 23 '17 at 22:22
  • @DoubleAA The passuk says that tzitzis are put on your garment and not someone else's. If you put it on someone else's it's just strings, not tzitzis. So why is it called tzitzis in halachah dalet to not only permit borrowing the Tallis without permission but even to make a brachah on it? – DonielF Jan 23 '17 at 22:34
  • It's not just strings though. As you cited, you are obligated to put on tzitzis, at least miderabanan after 30 days. – Double AA Jan 23 '17 at 22:37
  • Once Chazal enacted to wear tzitzit in this case, it's a mitzva derbanan and gets a bracha. It doesn't really matter why they made this enactment. No different then tzitzit on cotton garments, according to the opinions that only wool/linen is obligated deorayta. – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 01:26
  • @DoubleAA (Source that it gets a bracha?) Nevertheless, Halacha dalet doesn't seem to be discussing a chiyuv d'Rabbanan but rather a chiyuv d'Oraisa. I don't see any indication that it should be a chiyuv d'Rabbanan besides for my original question. And even if it is a chiyuv d'Rabbanan, what would be the reason that they would have enacted it? – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 02:23
  • The source that it gets a bracha is the shulchan arukh you cite! And i don't know why you think 14:4 is talking about a deorayta. it doesn't say one way or another. as to why they enacted it, as you said marat ayin of some sort seems to be a good contender. – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 02:42
  • @DoubleAA All it says is that it's chayiv tzitzis. Why is maris ayin applicable to borrowing a Tallis? Maybe he's patur from tzitzis entirely! (Oh, wait, he already is. Wearing tzitzis daily is a minhag.) And since when do we apply maris ayin to making Brachos? – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 03:24
  • I don't understand your last comment. 14:3 says a borrowed Tallis is obligated in Tzitzit, at least after 30 days, and you can even say a blessing (the reason for this obligation is completely irrelevant, but as it happens it's rabbinic). 14:4 says you can borrow your friends Tallis without him knowing (and then obviously you'd say a blessing per the above mentioned 14:3 since as mentioned there there is an obligation). There is no contradiction. – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 04:01
  • @DoubleAA I don't know which version of Shulchan Aruch you're using, but none of mine say anything about Brachos in 14:3. I'm still not understanding why 14:4 isn't a kesusecha v'lo kesus shel acheirim issue. – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 04:03
  • This is the 14:3 I checked just now https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97_%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%99%D7%93_%D7%92 14:4 is patur mideorayta bc of kesuscha and is obligated derabanan anyway as described in 14:3. – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 04:04
  • @DoubleAA That's odd. My edition doesn't have that last line. (It's a print edition so I can't give you a link.) Chayiv d'Rabbanan to do what? That a borrowed Tallis is chayiv a brachah and is able to fulfill the chiyuv? You can borrow without permission because people want you to do mitzvos with their things, provided that you don't harm them in the process. You're telling me that the Rabbanan invented a chiyuv on something that you stole such that retroactively it's borrowing to do a mitzvah instead of theft? I find that hard to believe. – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 04:13
  • @DoubleAA Again, why should he borrow it in the first place? Tell him that he's out of luck and can't perform the mitzvah until he finds one of his own. – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 04:14
  • Who's stealing anything? There's a chiyuv derabanan on borrowed things. That's all. When you can borrow without prior explicit permission is a separate choshen mishpat question. The chiyuv on borrowed things is already around. (here'e another edition http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x366 and my printed mishna berura confirms as well) – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 04:15
  • @DoubleAA Nevermind, I see what you're saying. As an aside, I just noticed the Magen Avraham asks why he can make a brachah and says that although it's patur from tzitzis he can still make a brachah the same way women can. So there's clearly not a chiyuv of any sort. Thus my question returns - why is it patur and not simply out of the parshah of tzitzis? – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 04:19
  • First of all, I don't mean to imply everyone agrees with the ShA. Now: the MA is addressing why he can say a blessing right away if the obligation doesn't kick in for 30 days (I glossed over that above). Which is a good question. It's not what you ask here though. – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 04:20
  • @DoubleAA No, it's not my question. But his answer is that he's patur but is able to bentch anyway. Emphasis on the fact that he's patur. – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 04:26
  • No need to emphasize. Everyone agrees he's patur for 30 days. After 30 though he's Chayav. – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 04:29

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After doing some digging I found the Rosh in Chullin 8:26 is the source for the Shulchan Aruch, who says that if one borrows a Tallis for the sake of the Mitzvah it's like a Matanah al Menas LeHachazir and therefore does fulfill the criterion of Kesusecha. I will note that he does say that really he's patur on a borrowed Tallis, which ultimately is the Gemara on 110a that he's commenting on.

DonielF
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  • Can you clarify which part of the ShA exactly this is the source for? Surely not every borrowed Tallis is a MAMLH and yet they all seem to get blessings (at least after 30 days if not before). – Double AA Jan 24 '17 at 04:30
  • @DoubleAA Both 14:3 and 14:4 come from this Rosh. I will emphasize the word "like". We give it the halachos of one even if it's not specified explicitly. – DonielF Jan 24 '17 at 04:36