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Is it just a fancy name for the Poylishe minhogim, or what? Is any Nusach Sfard siddur automatically minhog Polin or is it more specific?

ezra
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    Nusach Sfard isn't a Poylishe minhog. It's something Chasidim invented. – Double AA Dec 01 '16 at 18:31
  • Then what is the Poylishe minhog? – ezra Dec 01 '16 at 18:34
  • Seemingly, what everyone did before Chasidim started reforming the local practices. If someone shows up in town and changes everything, would you say that person is following the town's minhogim? Of course not. That would be the exact opposite. – Double AA Dec 01 '16 at 18:34
  • @DoubleAA, Nusach Sefard may have been invented before the chassidim. If the hakdamah to the Chaba"d siddur is to be believed, then Nusach Sefard was created by R' Yitzchak Luria Ashkenazi (I take this with a large amount of salt). – Noach MiFrankfurt Dec 01 '16 at 19:48
  • Minhog Polin is a very nebulous thing, much more so than Minhog Rheinus/Ashkenaz, because the former has a larger geographich area and more differentiation over time. Minhog Anglia (United Synagogue), Minhog Hamburg, and Minhog Berlin are all versions of the old Minhog Polin. – Noach MiFrankfurt Dec 01 '16 at 19:50
  • @Noach MiFrankfurt - I don't think the actual siddur was put together by the Ari Zal, but more like Nusach Sefard is the siddur that includes all of the customs of the Ari Zal, as transmitted by his talmidim. – ezra Dec 01 '16 at 21:16
  • the slichot of chassidim are called minhag Polin. – kouty Dec 01 '16 at 21:16
  • @NoachMiFrankfurt - For some reason unknown to me ArtScroll says that their Nusach Ashkenaz is Minhag Lita and their Nusach Sefard is Minhag Polin. How correct is this statement? – ezra Dec 01 '16 at 21:17
  • @kouty - That would make sense as to why ArtScroll says their Nusach Sefard is Minhag Polin. – ezra Dec 01 '16 at 21:18
  • @EzraHoerster, from a philological/historiographic perspective, calling an siddur "Nusach Ari" is a great act of haughtiness. Considering that almost all variants were composed before te relevant texts became available to the authors. On another note, Artscroll wants to revise Eastern Europe into nice, easily digestible bites, so anything in their Nusach "Ashkenaz" will be Litvisch, but anything Sefard will be Polish. – Noach MiFrankfurt Dec 01 '16 at 21:31
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    @kouty, I'm not sure your assessment it correct. Referring to Minhogei heChassidim as "Minhog Polin" is a disingenuous over-generalisation of a significantly more complex puzzle. – Noach MiFrankfurt Dec 01 '16 at 21:32
  • @Noach MiFrankfurt - Thanks for the note. But why would it be considered haughty to call a siddur Nusach Ari? Is that just your opinion or what? – ezra Dec 01 '16 at 21:32
  • @EzraHoerster, just my opinion based on the publication history of his works in Europe and their epocal relationship with the orginal siddurim Nusach Sefard. – Noach MiFrankfurt Dec 01 '16 at 21:35

2 Answers2

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Minhag Polin refers to liturgical variations within the Ashkenazi community which differ from the practice in Germany. Current mainstream Ashkenazi practice is close to Minhag Polin (because the community in Poland and their descendants demographically overwhelm German Jews). So, though Askhenaz literally refers to Germany, the specific customs of Germany (Minhag Ashkenaz) are the exception, not the rule, in the current Ashkenazi world.

Examples of Polin / Ashkenaz variants (Minhag Polin listed first):

  • Birkat Ha-Torah immediately following Elohai Neshama vs. Birkot Ha-Shahar immediately following Elohai Neshama, followed then by Birkat Ha-Torah.
  • Psukim of Birkat Cohanim as the material for learning after Birkat Ha-Torah vs. Parashat Ha-Tamid as the material for learning.
  • Shalom Rav vs. Sim Shalom in the Amidah of Shabbat Minhah.

Nusah Sfard is a separate issue and refers to variations applied by the Hasidim to Askhenazi liturgy.

paquda
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  • There are plenty of differences in other more ordinary parts of prayer too, just Siddurim don't always print the variants. – Double AA Aug 24 '17 at 14:18
  • I think that what @doubleAA is referring to is the collection of variant girsaot in most siddur paragraphs not excerpted from Tana"ch. – Noach MiFrankfurt Aug 24 '17 at 15:32
  • Relevant question: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/45891/what-are-the-major-regions-relevant-to-ashkenazi-minhagim?rq=1 – paquda Aug 24 '17 at 17:08
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Minhag Poylin pretty much refers to the Minhogim of central polish chassidus. Also Nusach Sefard is not automatically Poylish. Nusach Sefard is based of Nusach haAri"zal with certain motifications by the Baal Shem Tov Ztz"l and his Talmidim.

Ariel Yaari
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