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Which groups or authorities consider Cholov Yisroel to be normative halacha and not a chumra?

(Possibly equal to, "Who considers cholov stam treyf"?)

רבות מחשבות
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SAH
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    Duplicate? http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/31833 – msh210 Jun 24 '16 at 16:07
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    Everybody agrees that chalav yisrael is binding halakha. The question is what is considered chalav yisrael – Daniel Jun 24 '16 at 16:18
  • @msh210 I think my question is subtly different. (The other one is more like "Is CY normative halacha or a chumra?") – SAH Jun 24 '16 at 16:38
  • @Daniel Thanks. How would you suggest I rephrase my question to mean what you might guess I intend to mean? – SAH Jun 24 '16 at 16:38
  • Note that this depends on specific psakim, such as Rav Moshe's "chalav hacompanies" and specific locations. Thus in most of Europe (such as Spain and Italy) the leniency in the United States and Canada does not apply. – sabbahillel Jun 24 '16 at 17:03
  • My understanding is that Chaba"d believes that Chalav Yosra'el is a necessary halacha. Heard this from 2 Chaba"d people. The one nuance was that while both stated that this is Chaba"d's thinking, universally, one had no problem with MY using non-Chalav Yisra'el, but the other did stating that I was definitely drinking traif milk. So, I'm a bit puzzled by the difference in thinking, here. – DanF Jun 24 '16 at 17:11
  • SAH So a good answer there would answer this. I don't see how it's not a duplicate. @msh210 – Double AA Jun 24 '16 at 17:13
  • @DanF I know for a fact that (mainstream) Chabad does not consider non-CY treyf. – SAH Jun 24 '16 at 17:22
  • @DoubleAA Disagree completely that this is a duplicate. An answer to my question might take the form "New Skver, Bobov, Nitra, Neturei Karta"-- which is nothing like the form of current (good) answers to the other question. – SAH Jun 24 '16 at 17:28
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    @SAH What do "current answers" have to do with anything? We are talking about questions. I'm not sure you get how duplicity is measured here. Anyway, an answer there that says "New Skver, Bobov, Nitra, Neturei Karta hold it is not just a Chumra" would be fine, no? – Double AA Jun 24 '16 at 17:30
  • @DoubleAA Fine, so cf. the question there, which contains essentially no overlapping content with mine. – SAH Jun 24 '16 at 17:31
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    @SAH What? It is almost entirely overlapping. It mentions CY and Chumra/stringency. That's basically all the key words in this question. – Double AA Jun 24 '16 at 17:32
  • SAH why would Chabad not consider non-CY to be treif if they don't hold by R' Moshe's leniency? See http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/73276/1713 – Daniel Jun 24 '16 at 18:08
  • @Daniel I think your answer is in the answers to that question? – SAH Jun 26 '16 at 05:44
  • @SAH there were no answers to that question when I posted it here. I was hoping you could answer it. – Daniel Jun 26 '16 at 11:00
  • @Daniel AFAIK Chabad eats cholov yisroel only for chasidic, not halachic reasons. So cholov akum may be tumahdik/not spiritually beneficial, but it is not treyf. Other chasidim accept R'Moshe's heter but see it as only to be used in occasions of difficulty or other compelling circumstances. Living in Brooklyn, they don't think they face any of those. Hence, to a significant number of chasidim, the milk is not treyf. – SAH Dec 15 '16 at 06:14
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    @SAH If you can source that it's a good answer. To be clear, though, everybody agrees chalav akum is not kosher. The question is about chalav stam. – Daniel Dec 15 '16 at 18:23
  • @Daniel Thanks, good reminder. My source is basically conversations I have had with Chabad and Polishe Chasidim. Would that be good enough? – SAH Dec 16 '16 at 07:15
  • I finally understand this matter, I THINK. 1) R'Moshe's heter holds that American cholov stam is in fact cholov yisroel (albeit not the most reliable kind) and therefore can be eaten in case of significant need, though still better not to 2) Everyone agrees that true cholov akum is treyf. SO REALLY, no one thinks cholov yisroel, even "mehudar" cholov yisroel (i.e. foods specifically marked "cholov yisroel") is a chumra. Eating foods not marked CY is a heter, and eating foods marked CY is like the normative halachic level – SAH Jul 20 '17 at 04:52
  • I should have said 1) R'Moshe's heter holds that American cholov stam is not cholov akum – SAH Jul 20 '17 at 20:36
  • @Daniel I think you would appreciate my answer below, which pertains to your comments here from Dec 15 '16 at 18:23 and from Jun 24 '16 at 16:18. – רבות מחשבות Jan 10 '18 at 20:25
  • @mevaqesh This dupe was already proposed. I was asking about names of groups or authorities on each side, since I know there are those on both. – SAH Jan 11 '18 at 04:11
  • @mevaqesh I believe that a careful reading of my question plus existing comments yields a sufficient explanation of why this isn't a dupe. However, if you want to close the question, I'd at least ask that you migrate the high-quality answer that has been written – SAH Jan 11 '18 at 05:38
  • @SAH I can't migrate since I'm not a mod. If you don't want users to close a question, don't ignore comments like What? It is almost entirely overlapping. It mentions CY and Chumra/stringency. That's basically all the key words in this question. if you really think it isn't a dupe, edit why it isn't a dupe into the question. Just repeating that it isn't a dupe in comments isn't useful. – mevaqesh Jan 11 '18 at 05:42

1 Answers1

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I feel the need to post this because of the widespread misconception on this topic, as evidenced by Daniel's comments above, and the number of agreements to them.

It is a major Machlokes Haposkim as to whether or not one may drink "Chalav Stam/Akum" if there is significant reason to believe that the Goy has not added milk of any non-Kosher animals. This is NOT because it is considered Chalav Yisroel, rather that "Chalav Akum" is not a full fledged Gezeirah, and it is only prohibited/requires watching where there is a concern that a non-Jew added non-Kosher milk. (Note that Rav Moshe's leniency is not the same as the Poskim I am quoting. Rav Mosheh Paskens that Chalav Akum is always prohibited, no matter what the situation, and his Heter is a new way to consider more milk "Chalav Yisrael".)

See this article by Rabbi Jachter (Ein Beedro Tamei section) which provides a fantastic overview what I am discussing, although in slightly different terms.

The answer to the question of "Which authorities consider Cholov Yisroel to be normative halacha and not a chumra?" depends on the circumstances.

If there is no reason to assume that a non-Jew would refrain from mixing non-Kosher milk in with the milk, all Poskim agree that the milk in that case is prohibited, and none believe it is a Chumra.

If there is significant reason to believe that the non-Jew has not mixed in non-Kosher milk, or it is impossible that the non-Jew mixed in non-Kosher milk, many Poskim consider it to be a Chumra to get Chalav Yisrael. Depending on the exact circumstances, this list may include: Mordechai, Radvaz, Semak, Peri Chadash, Chazon Ish, Darkei Teshuva and a few others (sources in the above article). Others (including some early authorities and Aruch Hashulchan, Chachmas Adam, Chasam Sofer, sourced in the article) would say that in this case, Chalav Yisrael is still required by Halacha.

To repeat, according to many Poskim, in certain cases such as non-Kosher milk being not readily available, these opinions hold that one may go and buy non-Jewish milk, and they consider it Chalav Akum, in no way witnessed by a Jew, but still permissible to drink. I have quoted one of the major Matirim, the Peri Chadash YD 115:6. I would have pasted the entire piece, but it was much too long, so here is a short excerpt with the relevant passages bolded:

...

וכן נראה מדברי השערי דורא [סימן פב] שכתב וז"ל חלב שחלבו גוי ואין ישראל רואהו אפילו אין בהמה טמאה בדיר אסורה דלא ליפוק חורבא מינה ופורץ גדר ישכנו נחש כך פסק רש"י עכ"ל. וכי דייקית בה שפיר אין זה מחוור כלל, דבודאי חלב של גוי לא אסרוהו אלא היכא דאיכא חשש במילתא משום תערובת חלב טמא הא לאו הכי שרי, ותדע דהא בגמרא [עבודה זרה לט, ב] אמתניתין דקתני ואלו מותרין באכילה חלב שחלבו גוי וישראל רואהו אמרינן תנינא להא דתנו רבנן יושב ישראל בצד עדרו של גוי וגוי חולב לו ומביא לו ואינו חושש, פירוש ומדקתני יושב בצד עדרו של גוי מכלל שאינו רואהו חולב, ועוד אי ברואהו חולב פשיטא מתניתין היא, ופריך היכי דמי אי דליכא דבר טמא בעדרו פשיטא דשרי אף שאינו רואה כלל ואי דאיכא דבר טמא בעדרו אמאי, ומשני לעולם דאיכא דבר טמא וכי קאי חזי ליה וכי יתיב לא חזי ליה, מהו דתימא כיון דיתיב לא חזי ליה ניחוש דילמא מייתי ומערב ביה קמשמע לן דלא, ושמעינן מהכא דלא אסרו חלב גוי אלא כשיש חשש מתערובת חלב טמא, דהא בדליכא דבר טמא בעדרו התירו אף שאינו רואה כלל החליבה לא עומד ולא יושב, ואף כשיש דבר טמא בעדרו התירו אף שאינו רואהו חולב כל שיכול לראותו שאין שם חשש תערובת משום דמירתת, ואם היה דין חלב כגבינה של גוים היה לנו לאסור כל חלב שחלבו גוי ואין ישראל רואהו אף דליכא חשש תערובת משום לא פלוג, אלא ודאי כדאמרן: ונמצינו למדין שדינו ממש כדין מורייס של גוים שאסרוהו משום תערובת יין ואם היין ביוקר שרי, הכי נמי אם חלב טמא אינו נמצא במקום אחד, או שנמצא אלא שהוא יותר ביוקר מחלב טהור, אין לאסור שם חלב שחלבו גוי ואין ישראל רואהו אלא מותר לילך ולקנות מהגוים חלב שלהם. וכן מצאתי להרדב"ז בתשובה בסימן ע"ה [חלק ד אלף קמז] כדברי וז"ל, עוד שאלת חלב שחלבו נכרי ואין ישראל רואהו ואין במקום דבר טמא, או כגון שהיה העדר בתוך הדיר ובדק ולא היה שם דבר טמא, ויצא והביא לו הנכרי חלב מאותו הדיר, אבל לא היה יכול לראותו חולב כלל אם גזרת החלב הויא כגזרת גבינת הנכרים או לא: תשובה הדבר ברור כי הגבינה נאסרה במנין, אבל לא כן בחלב שחלבו גוי שאסרו אותו משום חשש דבר טמא. אבל נמצא כתוב במרדכי [עבודה זרה רמז תתכו] עלה דהא דפרכינן בגמרא [שם] אי דליכא דבר טמא כו', יש מוכיחין מכאן שאם ברור לנו דאין בהמה טמאה בעדרו דמותר ליקח חלב מן הנכרים אף על פי שאין ישראל רואהו, וטעות הוא בידם דא"כ הוי ליה לאקשויי אי דליכא דבר טמא בעדרו למה לי ישראל עומד בצד עדרו, ולדידי מיהא לא איריא, דלא מצי לאקשויי הכי דבעינן עומד בצד עדרו משום גילוי, אבל משום חשש דבר טמא לא חיישינן כיון שאין בעדרו דבר טמא, הילכך השתא דלא חיישינן לגילוי מותר, וכן משמע מדברי הרבינו פרץ שהוא המחמיר מכולם וז"ל דאפילו אין דבר טמא בעדרו יש להחמיר להיות הישראל שם בתחלת החליבה פן יערב או ישים הנכרי חלב טמא בכלי קודם שיבוא הישראל ע"כ, הא אי ליכא למיחש להכי מותר, דאחזוקי איסורא לא מחזקינן עכ"ל

...

Note his conclusion, where he says that he himself relies on this:

הכלל העולה דבעיר שלא נמצא שם חלב טמא או שהוא יותר ביוקר מחלב טהור מותר לקנות מהעכו"ם חלב שחלבו בלא ראיית ישראל כלל. וכן מצאתי המנהג פשוט פה אמשטירדאם וכן נהגתי אני ג"כ זולת קצת יחידים הנזהרים בזה.

See also Micha Berger's explanation of all of this here.

רבות מחשבות
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  • Out of curiosity, are you aware of a practical difference between Chalav Stam being considered Chalav Yisrael vs. Chalav Stam not being included in the gezeirah of Chalav Akum? That is, is there a case in which R’ Moshe would say the milk is kosher where Mordechai et. al. would say it’s not, or vice versa? – DonielF Jan 10 '18 at 07:45
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    @DonielF Consider a country with no government supervision, but also no (cheap) milk from non-Kosher animals available. According to R Moshe, you can't buy unsupervised milk, but Pri Chadash says explicitly that you can. E.g. (presumably) 17th century Amsterdam. || Whether such a place actually exists today is left as an exercise for the reader... – Joel K Jan 10 '18 at 08:18
  • @JoelK I couldn't have said it better myself. – רבות מחשבות Jan 10 '18 at 13:41
  • Are there any wealthy countries today where the milk sold in supermarkets without designation (e.g. "Cow's Milk) may legally be the milk of other species (other than cows)? – Chaim Jan 10 '18 at 13:53
  • btw. Impossible may be different than "significant reason" - Igros Moshe explicitly holds that his Hetter doesn't depend on the Pri Chadash and would hold even for the Aruch Hashulchan (and others). – ertert3terte Jan 10 '18 at 19:28
  • @ShmuelBrin 100% in agreement. Absolutely it is, that's why I wrote "Depending on the exact circumstances, this list may include", because they all have different lines that would make it allowed or not allowed. – רבות מחשבות Jan 10 '18 at 20:18
  • @ShmuelBrin To clarify: I wrote "If there is significant reason to believe that the non-Jew has not mixed in non-Kosher milk, or it is impossible that the non-Jew mixed in non-Kosher milk, many Poskim consider it to be a Chumra to get Chalav Yisrael." Rav Moshe considers it an absolute Chiyuv according to Halacha to get Chalav Yisrael, he just considers any milk to be Chalav Yisrael when there is an Umdena Demuchach. The OP had asked who considers it a Chumra, and who says that it is required by Halacha. Rav Moshe is in the second group. – רבות מחשבות Jan 10 '18 at 20:22
  • @רבותמחשבות I am still confused about one thing. I think I asked it before somewhere but have forgotten the answer. If R'Moshe technically considers american Cholov Stam to be CY, then why does he require kashering between cholov stam and CY? – SAH Jan 11 '18 at 04:15
  • @SAH I didn't know that he required that. With that assumption ("If R'Moshe technically considers american Cholov Stam to be CY"), I don't know. Perhaps re-ask it? – רבות מחשבות Jan 11 '18 at 05:01
  • @רבותמחשבות I was told he does, and at a very hot temperature too (212 fahrenheit). I don't get it. Maybe someone who sees this can answer. – SAH Jan 11 '18 at 05:33