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Let's say a husband and wife are alone on Friday night or on Shabbos day. Can the wife make kiddush for herself and her husband?

Tzvi
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2 Answers2

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Since women are obligated in kiddush on a Torah level (Zachor>Shamor), they can make kiddush for their husbands. The Aruch haShulchan 271:5 rejects the idea that women should not cover men, limiting it to public venues (b'tzibur).

That said, I once went to someones house where the woman made hamotzi. It rubbed me the wrong way. Since the custom has been for the man to do kiddush, it seemed like they were making a statement that should be outside the Jewish purview.

YDK
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  • I have heard, though I don't remember in whose name or with what degree of certainty/reliability it was said, that women may be chayavos in kidush from the Tora but not chayavos in kidush on wine, so once they say anything that serves as kidush, including possibly saying "good Shabas", they can no longer be motzios men with kidush on wine. CYLOR. – msh210 May 09 '11 at 02:31
  • After having throat surgery 9 years ago I was not allowed to talk for some time. As per the psak of one of the local poskim in Memphis I was told that my wife should make kiddush for us. Needless to say we had no guests! But we went elsewhere for Havdala. – Yahu May 09 '11 at 07:45
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    msh, why would they not be obligated in the mitzvah to be mekadeish on wine? Generally speaking, women are obligated in Rabbinic mitzvos asei sheHazman gramma. In this case, since it is based on a mitzvas asei mideoraisa sheHzman gramma (zachreihu) that women are obligated to do, why would the Rabanan not obligate them with zachreihu al haYayin? (BTW, there is at least one Rishon who opines that zachreihu al haYayin is mideoraisa.) – Yahu May 09 '11 at 07:49
  • @R'Yahu re wine: I don't recall the argument. – msh210 May 09 '11 at 14:39
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    @YDK Are you suggesting that the AH thinks that women cannot (not: should not) be motzi men in public settings? – Double AA Mar 24 '14 at 01:36
  • @DoubleAA, the answer says "should not", not "cannot". – msh210 Jan 17 '18 at 21:19
  • @msh210 "Should" can be prescriptive or suggestive so it's ambiguous alone. Especially when in the second paragraph he indicates he thinks they should not, in the suggestive sense, and doesn't seem to use the AhS as support. – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 21:28
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I went to a family for Shabbos lunch who are much more modern than I am, and the wife made Hamotzi. I quickly went through the Halachos in my head (I knew the Mishna Berurah about woman making Kiddush for husbands, but not other people), and I decided that although it may be technically allowed, I was not happy to fulfill my obligation through her, and so I made a Beracha under my breath when the Challah came around. (Furthermore, the woman was wearing a head covering and was not covering her arms).

Afterwards, I asked my Rav, a prominent and renowned Dayan, and he told me similar. He said that although it may be technically allowed, nowadays women are doing this for feminist reason, to prove men and women are equal. This is antithetical to the Torah, which believes that men and women have different roles to play in this world, as Rav Kook explains in Oros Hakodesh (Volume 2, Page 439). The problem is not so much a halachik one as a hashkofic one. My Rav was very upset how people do this to make a statement and that Chazal did not view the world like that. The accepted practice is that the man always says Hamotzi and that is what we should do.

(Also, see the Kaf Hachaim [271, 8] who quotes the Marharshal, Bach and Kenneses Hagdolah who pasken that tradition has determined that women are never motzi men with berachos, not even their own husband. This is even stricter than the Mishna Berurah quoted in above answers.

Clay Lears
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  • Welcome to MiYodeya Clay. I heard other rabbanim indeed judge that similar actions, even if technically permitted, are not accepted since they are being performed "to make a point". Hope to see you around! – mbloch Jan 17 '18 at 13:08
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    Too bad you missed out on Lechem Mishneh that meal. And if no one saw you protest by saying your own blessing, then what did you accomplish aside from a Bittul Aseh? "Chumra" haba lidei kula, if there ever was one. – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 13:24
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    This is indeed a pretty hashkafically abhorrent issue. You are claiming based on the whims of the time that we have to pretend women and men are less equal than they are as if women can't be Motzi men here. That is antithetical to the Torah. Following the advice in this post may actually be forbidden on pain of death as a Ziyuf HaTorah according to the Maharshal. – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 13:32
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    I don't see how this answers the question which was about Kiddush alone not Motzi for others – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 13:46
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    Did you also refuse to talk to the women at the meal, since the traditional custom is to seat them in a different room? Or did you realize that modesty norms related to meal arrangements change with time naturally and it doesn't matter? – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 13:47
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    "stricter than the Mishna Berurah quoted in above answers" I don't see any Mishna Berura quoted on this page. Do you mean "Arukh haShulchan" or perhaps something else? – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 15:28
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    Your rav rules that because some do this for objectionable reasons we must presume that all do? We judge the motives of unknown people like that? What if the woman is doing it because her husband isn't fluent or doesn't care? (Not your case, I know, but I do know families where it's true.) – Monica Cellio Jan 17 '18 at 15:29
  • @MonicaCellio "Not your case" ummm... how do we know what the family he went to was thinking? – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 15:35
  • @mbloch Like not being Yotzei with someone making a blessing, even if technically permitted to make your own blessing, in order to make the point that you don't like their hashkafic views. Indeed many rabbis find such things inappropriate. – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 15:39
  • @DoubleAA good point. I should have said "probably". The answer mentions motzi but not kiddush, so I inferred that the woman didn't do everything. Motzi is the easier bracha to learn, so if he can make kiddush he can probably make motzi. On the other hand, maybe he's got Celiac and can't eat a shiur of bread, so he can't make the bracha himself and thus not on behalf of others. We just don't know, but the answer presumes a reason. – Monica Cellio Jan 17 '18 at 15:49
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    @Mon There's more than just Celiac. It could just be the woman's favorite blessing to make. It could be the way her mom did it and makes her feel connected. The husband could have the flu and not want to touch the bread. It could be the husband is just tired and likes being 'served'. Maybe the wife is in mourning and wants to say blessings for others, but the husband is stubborn and loves making Kiddush but was willing to agree for Motzi. Maybe the husband's hand is shaky/wounded etc. such that handling the knife is complicated. Maybe the wife likes the initial scent emanating fromthe loaves.. – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 15:58
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    ..she baked when they are first broken open. Maybe all the over bar/bat Mitzva individuals rotate weeks (perhaps for a family feel or perhaps so all the kids learn how which is of underrated importance). Who knows? This answer accuses people of mixing politics with Halakha and falls into the same trap itself. Extremes are never good. Better to stick with actual Halakha and try to judge everyone for the best. (I'm not going to post any of that as an answer here because none of this has to do with the question even if multiple posters have hijacked the post to rant about their personal politics) – Double AA Jan 17 '18 at 16:01