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If one is invited to someones house on shabbat and they are being yotzeh kiddush with someone they know mumbles the words ,but they can't make their own kiddush for whatever reason (only enough wine for one cup,doesn't want to embarrass his host) is there any heiterim which allow him to be Yotzeh kiddush,or would he have to somehow make kiddush on the challah without someone noticing? What should one do in this situation?

msh210
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sam
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  • Did he hear the leader say enough of the words or not? This is just a Metziut question. – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 04:15
  • He heard them in a mumble – sam Mar 03 '16 at 04:15
  • So he heard the words. So what's the problem? – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 04:15
  • Beacuse he didn't hear the words clearly ,they were swallowed up,please don't tell me you never heard anyone say a bracha and then wonder if the person was yitzeh because it was debatable if he said the words correctly. This is a very common phenomenon – sam Mar 03 '16 at 04:18
  • It's just a metziut question. If he said enough words correctly he's yotzei; if not, not. I don't know what else you want from people here. Every person's case is different. – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 04:19
  • related http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/15922/759 – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 04:19
  • It's not a metziut question because many times your not sure if what he said was the right words ,it could be yes and it could be no,since he mumbled them – sam Mar 03 '16 at 04:20
  • So in those cases it's a safek metziut. Apply rules of safek (deorayta, derabana, etc.). – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 04:20
  • It's funny how yiu say this is a straight forward answer yet you link a question which you answer at great length instead of offering an answer like over here "its a metzius question" – sam Mar 03 '16 at 04:24
  • Mumbling or saying things too fast is a common problem, not just kiddush. – Epicentre Mar 03 '16 at 04:57
  • Epicentre: true but that is the problem of the speaker for himself. So he should do the best he can to improve. Here the questioner wants to know what to do in a situation where he needs to be yotzei his responsibility of kiddush by depending on words that he cannot comprehend because they are mumbled. The way we are yotzei is by Shomaya k'oneh (one who hears is as if he himself responded). If he didn't hear, how can it count as if he responded? – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 07:30
  • @sam You didn't ask what happens if he doesn't say the words right. You asked what to do if he mumbled. No one can answer that as it's just a Metziut question. If you ask about a case where you know what happened (they only said certain words and not others) then we can have a discussion if that is sufficient. – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 14:50
  • Double AA applying the laws of safek doesn't necessarily resolve his problem. The l'chatchilah (a priori) position would be to ask for wine and make your own kiddush. He isn't comfortable or able (no extra wine) to do that. What happens if he applies those rules and decides "I was not yotzei my requirement"? Should he not eat? That's certainly not an option he will be comfortable with either. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 15:56
  • @RYisroelMeirVogel I don't know what you mean by resolve the problem. It resolves the halachic question of if you have fulfilled the obligation of Kiddush. We then devolve to the next question of what to do in a case where you don't have wine for kiddush? – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 16:55
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    sam, I recommend that you [edit] to make it clear whether the question is about what to do before kiddush is made or after, and: If the former, then what quality of kiddush is expected, if the latter; what quality of kiddush was made. By quality, I mean something like "completely unintelligible," "pronounced some 'ayins as if they were alefs," "skipped over a name of God," etc. If it's a matter of doubt, either before or after, what's in doubt should be specified. – Isaac Moses Mar 03 '16 at 17:00
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    I'm going to put this on hold temporarily as unclear (per @IsaacMoses 's comment) until those edits are made, to prevent answers (like, likely, the current one) which do not address the intended question. – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 17:05

1 Answers1

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As a personal solution, to avoid such situations, when I am invited to someone's house, I casually mention before the host says kiddush, "Btw, I prefer making my own Kiddush." There are some Minhagim that each person makes his own kiddush (at least males above bar mitzvah). (not just on Passover). That generally resolves the problem of discomfort.

If they are using grape juice for kiddush, (or if they are using wine and have only enough for one cup; or it is expensive wine and you feel uncomfortable to ask for a whole new cup) then grape juice can be diluted up to 40% grape juice and 60% water (don't have source) and still require the Bracha "haGafen" which could mitigate that issue.

Perhaps these ideas would help without coming on to whispering kiddush to yourself before haMotzi.

Please note that our wine (as opposed to the wine mentioned in the Gemara) cannot be diluted, as it is already diluted. Any further dilution would leave one with a safek or definite Bracha of Shehakol. See comment below "To focus on..."

Another preemptive Eitzah(piece of advice) could be, if there is an Eiruv, bring a bottle of wine/grape juice for a gift to the host. This certainly alleviates the problem of not having enough wine. It also makes it easier to ask to say your own kiddush.

R Yisroel Meir Vogel
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    "but they can't make their own kiddush for whatever reason (only enough wine for one cup,doesn't want to embarrass his host)" The question explicitly excluded this option. – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 16:53
  • "That generally resolves the problem unless there is not enough wine." (Quote from my answer) Then I very explicitly added the idea of grape juice which was Not discussed. Some Poskim hold that grape juice is only good b'di'eved. Using grape juice instead of wine is better than no proper Bracha. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 16:57
  • Double AA I have edited the answer to make sure that the answer is more to your liking. I hope you are now satisfied! :-) – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 17:15
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    I still have no idea why you are talking about wine dilution here (nor why you think all our wine is diluted, but our grape juice isn't...?) The question is about a mumbled kiddush where you can't get your own kos. – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 17:17
  • I don't think it. I was told by people involved in Halacha and kashrus many years ago that explored the issue and know about grape juice. As I said in the answer, I have no book source. (I'm sure it could be found.) As for wine, that is brought down in Halacha. The Gemara says that wine CAN be diluted. Halacha refers to "yayin shelanu" IIRC which has already been diluted. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 18:16
  • To focus on what my answer is: the questioner presented a theoretical situation where he is invited to someone's house who mumbles. 2 problems: (1) only enough wine for one cup; or (2) doesn't want to embarrass his host. Answers to (1): a. Only one cup of wine? Ask for grape juice. b. Only one cup of grape juice? Dilute it, it remains a haGafen, and both can make kiddush. Answer to (2) embarrassed to bring it up, especially after hearing a mumbled Bracha? Be proactive: mention up front I always make my own kiddush. No reason for anyone to be insulted if it is your universal preference/Minhag. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 18:27
  • Sigh. And what if your host is already using diluted grape juice and you didn't know he'd mumble till afterwards? After stripping away all the Ukimtas in the case, that is the essence of his question. This post misses that point – Double AA Mar 03 '16 at 18:35
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    With all due respect, he IS looking for an ukimtah. He was stuck between not being yotzei or embarrassing his host. My advice is specific to those situations. Make your own kiddush. Quite frankly, he says he knows that the guy mumbles. As you commented if he mumbles and you didn't hear the Bracha, then you need to do something. I gave him 3 options. Most people don't dilute grape juice. And being preemptive takes away the embarrassment. Then his problem is resolved. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 18:45
  • One more thought. I just noticed that I misread your sigh. "What if [he] uses diluted grape juice and you don't know he'd mumble til afterwards." A. That's not his question. B. I alluded to the answer in my post "perhaps these ideas would help without coming onto whispering kiddush to yourself before haMotzi." If you do nothing preemptive and you are stuck, you have to make kiddush somehow! Without wine, make it on bread! Embarrassed? "Whisper" – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 19:00
  • "whispering kiddush to yourself before haMotzi": wouldn't it be after? – msh210 Mar 03 '16 at 20:12
  • Our (U.S.) grape juice has grape juice concentrate added, so I'd not be surprised it can be heavily diluted and still be "hagafen". (Or "hagefen", if you prefer.) (cc @DoubleAA re "why you think all our wine is diluted, but our grape juice isn't...") – msh210 Mar 03 '16 at 20:14
  • @DoubleAA this seems to directly answer the question in the last sentence of the question post. But I agree that that post is unclear and agree with its closure pending clarification. – msh210 Mar 03 '16 at 20:15
  • Msh210 Yes I meant before the host says haMotzi. The guest would have to whisper Vayechulu" and the Bracha haMotzi then the Bracha of kiddush then eat the piece of challah which hopefully would be waiting for him by then...:-) Still not the best scenario, as he is not controlling the bread, which seems to me to be problematic. The other eitzot are my preferences. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Mar 03 '16 at 20:22