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Have heard a few older mizrahi recordings for qiddush and am noticing that some of them use borei f'ri hagefen. When i looked up Qiddush in my Egyptian siddur (Farhi Siddur) i noticed the Pei had no dagesh. It makes sense to me grammatically that it would be f'ri as the Borei ends with an aleph, and usually that removes the dagesh from the word that follows. Anyone have any sources? Or have access to ancient siddurim with nekkudoth to see if they put the dagesh in the pei or not?

Update: I've now collected an older Livorno siddur that also has f'ri, as well as Yemenite siddurim that all have f'ri. So this seems to be consistent amongst older non Ashkenazi communities.

Aaron
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    It would make sense to have the Dagesh, because Borei is on a pause. It's not "borei-fri, hagafen". It's "borei, peri-hagafen". (ROY has a teshuva about this IINM.) – Double AA Sep 13 '15 at 01:50
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    teimonim say faree – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Sep 13 '15 at 02:04
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    @DoubleAA If bore is a noun, "the creator of", then it's got s'michus and there should be a fe. If it's a verb, "Who creates", then not. Afaict. – msh210 Sep 13 '15 at 02:24
  • @msh210 i agree with your thought. – Aaron Sep 13 '15 at 02:36
  • @DoubleAA How would one know it's on a pause without te'amim? – Aaron Sep 13 '15 at 02:46
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    @Aaron Taamim are just reflecting natural grammar and syntax. – Double AA Sep 13 '15 at 03:36
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    @DoubleAA Right, but if it's natural grammar and syntax, how can you have mizrahi communities (such as yemenites or Egyptians or Iraqis) going "there is a natural lack of pause here." And Ashkenazim going "there is a natural pause here." It doesn't make sense to me? – Aaron Sep 13 '15 at 03:51
  • @Aaron They each think that theirs is the natural way of phrasing it. What doesn't make sense to you? – Double AA Sep 13 '15 at 04:18
  • @DoubleAA Because in English there might be a debate regarding the Oxford comma, but other than that most English speakers know where a natural pause should or aught be. Whereas with this, it seems like if we didn't have the Mosoretic markings, everyone might place the Etnachtas/Atnachs in different places. – Aaron Sep 15 '15 at 16:38
  • @msh210 -- I don't think that grammatical distinction exists in Biblical Hebrew. More like the language lacks a real present tense; instead: you are what you are doing.

    There is also another possible difference: Ashkenazim and Teimanim pray in Biblical Hebrew, which is why we use the pausal form, "hagafen". Whereas Sepharadim pray in Mishnaic Hebrew, which is why they say "hagefen". (Also, why Ashk has "qadsheinu bemitzvosekha" and Seph has "... bemitzvosakh".) They may or may not have different grammatical rules here too, I don't know.

    – Micha Berger Sep 16 '15 at 00:30
  • @MichaBerger So then if both Ashkenazim and Yemenites use Biblical Hebrew, why do Ashkenazim say p'ri and Yemenits say f'ri? – Aaron Sep 16 '15 at 01:40
  • @Aaron Just because we don't have masoretic markings doesn't mean people put it wherever. That would, be inane: frankly?. Any natural speaker of a language knows where pauses go. – Double AA Sep 16 '15 at 01:45

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There is halakhic justification for the custom of vocalizing a stress-less feri as a more grammatically correct way of saying the blessing. In his responsa Or Letzion, (vol. 2, chapter 46, halakha 34), the Sephardic rabbi, Ben Tzion Abba Shaul (1924-1998), wrote:

יותר מדוקדק לומר בורא פרי הגפן וכן בורא פרי העץ ובורא פרי האדמה כשהאות פ' של המילה פרי רפויה

שכן אותיות בג״ד כפ״ת אחר אותיות אהו״י רפויות הן. ואין לומר שיש הפסק בורא לפרי, שהרי המילה בורא אין לה משמעות בפני עצמה, ועל כרחך שהמילה פרי נמשכת אחר המילה בורא, ואם היה זה פסוק בתורה, הטעמים היו מאריך טרחא סוף פסוק

It is more accurate to say borei feri hagefen and also borei feri ha-etz and borei feri ha-adamah with the letter peh of the word as a stress-less feri.

This is because, grammatically, the letters bet, gimmel, dalet, kaf, peh, and tav, when following the letters alef heh vav and yud become stress-less. And it is not right to say that there is a pause between borei and peri, since the word borei [the Creator of] doesn't have a meaning by itself, as it is necessary for the word feri [fruit] to continue after the word borei to make sense. And if it was a verse in the Torah, the cantillation would be a ma'arikh tarḥa sof pasuq.

It should be stated that the custom for many Sepharadim is to still say peri with a stressed peh. R. Ovadia (Yabia Omer, O.Ḥ. 9:22) specifically countered the position of Or Letzion, stating that, grammatically, there should be a stressed peh because there actually is a brief pause between the two words in the blessing. The grammatical rule applies to words joined by context. Among other proofs that he uses from Tanakh, he cites a very similar parallel in the vocalization of Gen. 1:11, where a peh follows a heh (which should normally make it stress-less):

עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ

'oseh peri le-mino

Moreover, R. Ovadia goes on to say that the grammatical rule above is not so firm:

ובכלל נראה שהכלל של אהו"י הסמוכות לבג"ד כפ"ת שעושות אותן רפויות, אינו כלל החלטי, ופעמים רבות שדוחים כלל זה מפני סיבות אחרות מוצדקות

In any case, it doesn't seem like the rule of the letters alef heh vav and yud in connection with the bet gimmel dalet kaf peh and tav to make the latter stress-less --is actually a decisive rule, as there are plenty of times when that rule is rejected for other justifiable reasons.

R. Ovadia then proceeds to list various other occurrences when the rule is not followed (e.g., mi khamokhah ba-'elim Hashem, mi kamokha ne'edar ba-qodesh) to dismantle the stringency of the grammatical rule.

Aaron
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Aryeh
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    Rav Ovadia is mistaken, if accurately represented. The dagesh in the phrase עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי is not due to a slight pause, but rather a dagesh chazak due to the words being connected (called אתי מרחיק) – Double AA Jun 09 '21 at 21:28
  • Thank you for the sources! – Aaron Jun 09 '21 at 21:45
  • There are plenty of verses with a participle that "doesn't have a meaning by itself" coming on a mafsiq. Even a few with בורא: Isaiah 40:28 and 57:19. – magicker72 Jun 09 '21 at 21:47
  • @DoubleAA ועץ עושה "פרי" אשר זרעו בו למינהו, אות פ' דגושה. וכתב במנחת שי שם שהטעם שהם בדגש, הראשון מדין מפסיק ואתי מרחיק, והשני מדין דחיק שהוא במקף – Aryeh Jun 09 '21 at 22:52
  • @Aryeh I made an edit to your answer that I think is closer to what you were trying to say/closer to the Hebrew. Let me know if you disagree – Aaron Jun 10 '21 at 17:07
  • "kamocha" is one of exactly 10 known exceptions which are all listed out. Hardly evidence that the rule shouldn't apply here. https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/47618/759 – Double AA Jun 10 '21 at 17:13
  • @Aryeh I'm guessing by מפסיק there Minchat Shai is referring to the consonant ending in previous phrase עץ פרי which is the first instance of פ with a dagesh, though even that is weird. If someone has access to Betser's edition of Minchat Shai please enlighten us, as this is plausibly a typo. Either way what he's saying in this answer is still mistaken. – Double AA Jun 10 '21 at 17:17
  • @DoubleAA maybe he was mistaken, although that’s a pretty easy (and might I add, dismissive) thing to type – Aryeh Jun 10 '21 at 18:54
  • As the Noda Bihuda wrote "Why are you asking me grammar questions? I'm a rabbi! Go ask a grammarian" – Double AA Jun 10 '21 at 19:00
  • See for example https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/91369/759 which calls these "conjunctive dagesh" and https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/11299/759 which discusses 'squeezing' the two words together. There's just no way these examples from Tanakh are relevant to the bracha under discussion. – Double AA Jun 10 '21 at 19:33