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See this related M.Y. question . This states the general parameters of tircha d'tzibur. My question, here, focuses on just the "time" factor and what appears to be a contradiction in common practice.

I realize that a number of halachot were instituted and specifically mentioned in Shulchan Aruch because of tircha d'tzibbur. One notable one is the reason to take out 2 Torah scrolls on Yom Tov so that the congregation shouldn't have to wait to roll the 1st Torah from one place to another. This is true, even if the 2 readings are nearby, and it takes less than a minute to roll.

In short (no pun, here), it seems that time is the primary factor used to determine the tircha. I.e., even a short delay is considered tircha. There are other halachot instituted esp. regarding eliminating certain proposed items in the weekday Shacharit (IIRC, not reciting the blessings from Bil'am is one example) b/c of tircha d'tzibur and people are rushing to work - clearly, a time concern.

In view of the Shulchan Aruch emphasizing that even a minute minute is too long, it appears that some, if not all, of these examples should also be considered tircha:

  • A chazzan that sings "too much" or too slowly esp. in Kedusha and esp. if he repeats words.

    (for purposes of answering this question, I am not interested in other problems of repeating anything during davening. There are debates about this, and certain places where this is permitted. Please focus repetition problems only as it relates to tircha d'tzibur.)

  • A rabbi who gives a long sermon

  • Too many additional aliyot , esp. for B'nai Mitzvah, or aufruf

  • Additional mi sheberach to honor the rabbi, the oleh's friends, family, etc. Likewise, having a line-up of people to recite Mi Sheberach L'cholim (for the ill).

  • Reciting extra optional paragarpahs that are not standard in the Siddur. E.g., on Yom Tov, before the Torah is taken out, and the Aron is open, my rav recites a special English prayer related to the Yom Tov.

These are a few of many examples. I don't recall any sefarim addressing any of these issues. However, to me, it seems logical that these actions should be considered tircha d'tzibur*, but, apparently, aren't, since many shuls practice some of those in the list.

In summary, why are these longer activities not considered tircha, when compared to the Torah rolling example, which seems to develop the guideline or definition of what amount of time tircha should be?

DanF
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  • Maybe also Chazal should have written shorter Brachot in Shmone Esrei and not put as many chapters of Tehillim into Pesukei Dizimra. – Double AA Apr 15 '15 at 14:52
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    How does it seem from the case of the two Torahs that amount of time is the primary concern??? It shows exactly the opposite! Something that wastes almost no time is still a problem. – Double AA Apr 15 '15 at 14:54
  • @DoubleAA Hah! That was something I had proposed some time ago, to several rabbanim. The response I got had different "shitos" from a laugh to a shrug to the fickle finger of fate. My reaction to you is just ):-? Re - the Torah scrolls - Agreed. It does show that even a SHORT amount of time is problematic. Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, but that is exactly my point. Everything else is LONGER, but they don't seem to be a problem! – DanF Apr 15 '15 at 14:56
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    @DanF, maybe you should rephrase this question as "What parameters define a td"z?" – Isaac Moses Apr 15 '15 at 15:03
  • could it be dependent on the particular tzibbur? Maybe the question should be about the logic of institutionalizing something which is naturally variable. – rosends Apr 15 '15 at 15:04
  • @IsaacMoses - See latest edits. I linked to a M.Y. question that addresses that. I don't feel that my question is a dupe. – DanF Apr 15 '15 at 15:19
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    I still see no evidence that length of time is relevant at all. The only factor that seems relevant is if there is a reason to be doing this. – Double AA Apr 15 '15 at 15:23
  • We removed the 10 commandments because of Taarumos Haminim. You're probably thinking of the blessings of Bilaam – ertert3terte Apr 15 '15 at 18:47
  • @ShmuelBrin - Thanks for the correction. I'll edit. What does "Taarumos Haminim" mean, and where is this rule mentioned? – DanF Apr 15 '15 at 18:53
  • @DanF They only believed in the ten commandments. It's in the second perek of Brachos (I think, could be the end of the 1st) – ertert3terte Apr 15 '15 at 18:54
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    Like DoubleAA said, you seem to provide evidence in the question that time is not the deciding factor, and then you ask what the deciding factor is. Despite the question's occupation with the idea of time, it seems like an exact duplicate of the question it links to (which I think is what @IsaacMoses was getting at with his comment). I move to close as duplicate. – msh210 Apr 16 '15 at 15:28
  • http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/21133877#21133877 et seq. – msh210 Apr 16 '15 at 15:42
  • @msh210 Gee, moderators have a busy job! A lot of "chat"ter, to me, but I understand you have to do that. I'm not sure how else to phrase my question. To me, it DOES seem that time is the ONLY factor, which is what I THINK I've tried to say. If my premise is incorrect, perhaps rather than making this a dupe, answer that it IS incorrect and prove why I'm wrong. Does that make sense? – DanF Apr 16 '15 at 15:59
  • @DanF, sure does. I haven't closed it. – msh210 Apr 16 '15 at 16:23
  • @msh210 Sorry I'm not putting this comment on chat. My browser limits some pages. Advice - As I updated the previously broken link in the answer to the linked MY question (in my 1st sentence), I noticed that the article answers my own question, HERE, as it addresses most of the bulleted items. The answer does seem to support the notion that, indeed, time IS the primary factor as cited in SA and Talmud. It is the article, that seems to extend that definition, IMO. So, what should I do? Post my own answer, here, or something else? – DanF Apr 16 '15 at 16:29
  • ^^ cc @DoubleAA – msh210 Apr 16 '15 at 21:23
  • @DoubleAA - Friendly reminder of ^^^ – DanF Apr 21 '15 at 17:20

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