Garments that unintentionally require tzitzit

Question

Have you ever encountered in the wild (i.e. owned, considered purchasing in a store, seen worn by an observant Jewish man) a garment that requires tzitzit but that was not made for them (i.e. not a tallit gadol or tallit katan)?

If you've seen such a garment worn by an observant Jewish man, how was it handled? Were tzitzit added? Was the garment altered to remove the requirement?

I'm asking because it seems to me that this situation is rare in the modern Western world and therefore the relevant rules may be forgotten when it does come up, so it could be useful to have a collection of practical anecdotes, to spread awareness of both how the issue manifests in real life and how it can be dealt with. Also, I'm just curious about what people have seen.

Also related: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/11770 — msh210, Nov 28 '11 at 20:31

score 15 · Answer 1 · answered May 30 '11 at 09:18

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A Mexican Poncho. Usually a large square of woven wool with a hole in the middle for the head to go through. Those almost certainly need tzitzis.

answered May 30 '11 at 09:18

Menachem

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I recall once seeing someone wear this. – Seth J Jun 03 '13 at 13:53
@SethJ: With Tzitzit? – Menachem Jun 03 '13 at 14:19
Yes. I have seen many people wearing ponchos, in person, in photos, in cartoons when I was a kid, etc. But I have also once seen a poncho with Tzitzith. – Seth J Jun 03 '13 at 14:33

score 12 · Answer 2 · answered Nov 28 '11 at 19:31

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Rav Yoel Bin Nun famously slit the slides of his suit jacket rov open and attached tzitzit (with techelet) because he wants to be yotzei the mitzvah on his regular beged as is likely the intention of the pasuk. Source: I've seen him!

answered Nov 28 '11 at 19:31

Double AA

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That's not exactly what I was asking for, but it's awesome! – Isaac Moses Nov 28 '11 at 19:38
Yes it is!! :-) – Double AA Nov 28 '11 at 20:03
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Did you study at YH"'E? – Seth J Apr 29 '12 at 22:22
Did he alter the front corners of his jacket and accentuate the slit in the back, or did he create a new slit? – Seth J Jun 03 '13 at 13:50
@SethJ Pretty sure it had side vents. – Double AA Mar 01 '16 at 05:11
what color is the jacket? Are the tzitzis white or the same color as the jacket (unless he wears a white jacket)? – Dude Mar 27 '16 at 17:44
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@Dude Not sure, but i think the strings were white following the ashkenazi minhag. – Double AA Mar 27 '16 at 18:08
@Dude You can see him here wearing a dark blue jacket with white strings and tekhelet: https://www.mywesternwall.net/2017/11/03/top-32-rabbis-and-founders-wearing-tekhelet-techeiles.html – Jan 27 '19 at 13:44

Baal Shemot Tovot · Answer 3 · 2012-02-20T03:34:03.593

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When members of the Neturei Karta movement in Meah Shearim protest the State of Israel on Yom Ha'atzmaut, they dress in sackcloth, which has four corners (at least that's the current style). I noticed that at least one corner of every sackcloth garment was rounded off, but it could be because of the poor-quality sackcloth, which is in high demand around Yom Ha'atzmaut.

edited Feb 20 '12 at 03:34

answered Feb 20 '12 at 02:57

Baal Shemot Tovot

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+1 for, if nothing else, "poor-quality sackcloth, which is in high demand around Yom Ha'atzmaut"! – msh210 Feb 20 '12 at 06:00

score 9 · Answer 4 · answered Jan 14 '11 at 18:47

9

Back in the "Ugly 80's" there was this muscle shirt that had the sides slit all the way up until almost the armpits, creating a four cornered shirt. No one I saw wearing it knew or cared about Hilchos Tzitzis.

answered Jan 14 '11 at 18:47

Yahu

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Hey man, don't mess with the 80s; they may come back to bite you... – yitznewton Dec 12 '11 at 20:46

score 6 · Answer 5 · answered May 12 '11 at 21:45

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I saw someone in Washington Hieghts, New York wearing a blanket with Tzitzit attached.

answered May 12 '11 at 21:45

Ariel K

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You sure it wasn't a tallit? Minhag Ashkenaz says that it should be worn somewhat similarly. – Noach MiFrankfurt Jul 30 '14 at 18:29

HodofHod · Answer 6 · 2012-02-24T18:43:42.030

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Ok, here's a good one:

I was once part of a traveling Chanukah play (long story) in which I acted¹ as an evil (didn't have to fake it too much >;-) ) king (you'll never guess which!)². On one piece of the king's (very elaborate) costume (I think it was the cape) we had a safek on whether it needed tzitzis. Of course, we only realized this in between scenes. On the sixth performance. For a special-needs school. In Yehupitzville.

So one of the guys grabbed a scissors and rounded all of the corners. Just to be safe. We then finished the play and went on to perform it eight more times. In three days. In four cities. Good times!

(Sorry for stretching it out, I'm gearing up for Purim. =D)

^{1) I also sang and played the guitar. It's an interesting story. Remind me to tell you sometime.}
^{2) Okay, fine, it was Achashverosh.}

edited Feb 24 '12 at 18:43

answered Feb 20 '12 at 04:52

HodofHod

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Pics or it didn't happen! :) – Alex Feb 20 '12 at 15:41
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@Alex, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it! ;-) – HodofHod Feb 20 '12 at 16:11
Achashverosh wasn't necessarily evil, just foolish. :) – Alex Feb 24 '12 at 19:16
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@Alex, Ugghh.... You killed it! – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 19:18
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Ok, I'll be waiting for this story in chat :) – Daniel Jun 03 '13 at 14:45

score 5 · Answer 7 · answered Jan 14 '11 at 17:36

5

It's a common issue with kapotas as well. There too, the usual approach is to round off one of the corners.

answered Jan 14 '11 at 17:36

Alex

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Yup this was my problem. Had a Frock Coat with four square corners, had to to round one of them. – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Jan 15 '11 at 18:14
Interesting, hadn't really thought of that. – Naftuli Kay May 13 '11 at 05:37
@RabbiMichaelTzadok You mean to say that you had to attach strings but decided to actively avoid doing a mitzva by rounding one of them. – Double AA Jan 19 '15 at 20:06
@DoubleAA If I recall correctly the problem with adding tzitzis to a coat would be whether they stay white or if they are the same color as the coat. Since this isn't clear it would appear better that the coat not meet the requirement for tzitzis – Dude Mar 01 '16 at 04:50
@Dude You and Rav Katina... – Double AA Mar 01 '16 at 04:52
@RabbiMichaelTzadok It was rov open? That's a pretty high slit! – Yehoshua Jan 27 '18 at 23:23

score 2 · Answer 8 · edited Feb 20 '12 at 03:16

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Just a few days ago I saw a frock coat with a generous slit down the back and tried to eyeball it to see whether it came out to rov pasuach. Close call. Then I stole glances at the wearer, both front and back, in search of rounded corners and didn't see any. So I was dan lekav zechus and assumed the slit went less than halfway up.

If I understood correctly, according to Pe'er Halacha you count the lapels as corners, so there are actually six, which means you'd have to round off at least three.

edited Feb 20 '12 at 03:16

ertert3terte

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answered May 12 '11 at 11:37

Ben of Ben's Tallit Shop

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A style of bekische I've seen on some Satmars is very long and if a corner or three are unrounded, it would be chayav tzitzit, at least derabbanan. – Noach MiFrankfurt Sep 07 '16 at 14:38

score 1 · Answer 9 · answered Jan 14 '11 at 17:28

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There are these rain coats that are sort of a large 4 cornered heavy material with snaps at the bottom. I saw someone who wore it and after someone pointed out to him that it may be a Shaila of Tzitzis he rounded off the corners.

answered Jan 14 '11 at 17:28

Gershon Gold

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Any chance you could point to a picture of this kind of coat? – Isaac Moses Jan 14 '11 at 18:08
I will see if I can get a photo – Gershon Gold Jan 14 '11 at 19:16
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Unless the synthetic material was cut down to threads an rewoven, there would not be a shaila. It would be similar to leather which the Mishna Berura 10:11 brings as not requiring even d'rabanan: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14170&st=&pgnum=33&hilite= – YDK Jan 16 '11 at 19:28
@YDK What about a nylon rain poncho with Ripstock? I a had a poncho like this once, and didn't know if it was considered woven or not, so I rounded off one of the corners. – Menachem May 30 '11 at 09:12

YDK · Answer 10 · 2011-01-16T19:51:58.050

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Although the final psak (minhag?) is that they are exempt from tzitzis, our coats that have 2 corners by the neck an 2 by the waist do not escape question. (Mishna Berurah 10:36)

Also, when I was learning to make tzitzis as a teen, I made a t-shirt chayav in tzitzis to use as a basketball jersey.

edited Jan 16 '11 at 19:51

answered Jan 16 '11 at 19:17

YDK

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score 0 · Answer 11 · answered Jun 03 '13 at 14:00

0

I once encountered a gentleman in a Trader Joe's store wearing a trench coat with Tzitzith on the corners.

However, they were almost certainly not Kosher.

Also, I believe the gentleman may have been a Christian missionary of some sort.

answered Jun 03 '13 at 14:00

Seth J

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Garments that unintentionally require tzitzit

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