4

I have heard that many Orthodox married couples never sleep in the same bed, even during the times that they are permitted to each other. Coming from a non-Orthodox background, this seems shocking to me, since I was brought up to believe that sleeping in the same bed is a major part of being married. Is there any source for this practice? Is it halacha?

bondonk
  • 10,280
  • 2
  • 26
  • 76
Desert Star
  • 3,393
  • 1
  • 19
  • 35
  • 1
    Related: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30440/aside-from-the-days-set-aside-for-impurity-what-exactly-is-a-man-allowed-to-do – Adám Dec 30 '14 at 22:24
  • 2
    You should really state where you heard it and who said it. – sabbahillel Dec 31 '14 at 00:56
  • I have heard it from a few friends... one friend (a baalas tshuva) said she complained to a rabbi about her husband never sleeping in her bed. She said the rabbi seemed surprised by the question and indicated that the practice was normal. – Desert Star Dec 31 '14 at 13:36
  • 1
    Anecdotally, this is normative practice in (some?) Chasidic circles. I don't have any source (hence a comment rather than an answer) but I would guess that the reason is to avoid hirhurim (thoughts) that might otherwise arise in the husband from sharing a bed with his wife when not actively engaged in relations. – yoel Dec 31 '14 at 14:15
  • @yoel, do you know if Chabad is included? – Desert Star Dec 31 '14 at 15:34
  • @DesertStar no idea but I would imagine that even if so there is considerable diversity there due to the large percentage of the Chabad population being baalei tshuva. – yoel Dec 31 '14 at 20:34
  • @Yoel Rav Moshe writes that it is absolutely permissible and appropriate for a man to kiss his wife as long as she is tehora, and we are not concerned about hirhurim or anatomical reactions that may occur. – Shalom Jan 12 '15 at 00:07
  • @DesertStar Yes, it is done this way in Chabad by most. Such is my understanding, at any rate – SAH Jul 29 '18 at 17:21

8 Answers8

9

People are generating a lot of unnecessary fog here, especially with the weird asceticism-within-marriage idea. Let's not go there, please.

A couple will need two separate beds for ~12--15 days per month when the wife is cycling normally; plus at least a few weeks after childbirth. Hence it's very common to have two beds that can be separated (or put together). If there's some other arrangement that works for them, that's fine too.

For the times of the month that the couple doesn't need to separate the beds, it's entirely their decision what to do about the beds. (There are plenty of non-Jewish couples who like having their own space.) It's not shocking that some may find it easier to just keep them separated then too -- and if the couple is happy with that, that's fine and good. There's nothing that can or should be dictated about this.

Shalom
  • 132,602
  • 8
  • 193
  • 489
8

I found this "Halacha" in the Kaf HaChaim, Orach Chaim 240:63

ישכב תמיד במטה מיוחדת בפני עצמו. ואם צריך לשמש לשם מצות פו׳׳ר אחר גמר .השימוש כמו חצי שעה יקום וישוב למטה היוחד לו. אור הצדיקים סי׳ כז׳ אות ג׳

Furthermore, in Sefer Piskei Teshuvos, (pamphlet on Siman 240, footnote 226), the author quotes his father as being against the practice of having a single bed. (I have a sefer, entirely about Orach Chaim 240, and he quotes a sefer called דרכי טהרה. I have never heard of this sefer, nor can I find it, but apparently it has something relevant to this discussion.)

moses
  • 3,597
  • 17
  • 15
4

The Nitai Gavriel brings an opinion that the two beds should never be connected, or to have a double bed, due to Maris Ein. So from a practical perspective, sleeping in the same bed can be difficult, as it essentially means sleeping in one bed while leaving a second one empty, not connecting them, that is likely not all that large.

I know of a Rov who paskened about having beds beyond a certain size that it is not Tznius. The specific size isn't relevant for this answer because it would be about what is standard to have in homes.

And many people just prefer/get used to sleeping separately. So when you put it all together, it does add up to a lot of reasons why sleeping the same bed is just impractical and thus not done.

There is, however, no strictly Halachic prohibition against it. I'm confident asserting that because in that whole chapter the Nitai Gavriel (who is a rather thorough collector of stringent opinions) says nothing (that I could find).

Yishai
  • 31,937
  • 1
  • 62
  • 130
  • 3
    Just having a hard time comprehending how a far-fetched "Maris Ein" or a perplexing claims of "impracticality" or "not tznius" are allowed to upend a major part of married life... sleeping together with your spouse – Desert Star Dec 31 '14 at 19:21
  • 2
    @DesertStar, I think the idea that anything is "upended" is a cultural norm that is simply not shared by everybody. In Halacha we find it important that the couple sleep in the same room (even when the wife is Niddah), as this creates marital happiness, but the same bed is really about personal feeling. Nothing in any answer here suggests that it is forbidden when one spouse finds it important to them and their sense of marriage. – Yishai Dec 31 '14 at 20:05
2

איבעיא להו: נדה, מהו שתישן עם בעלה היא בבגדה והוא בבגדו? - אמר רב יוסף, תא שמע: העוף עולה עם הגבינה על השלחן ואינו נאכל, דברי בית שמאי. בית הלל אומר: לא עולה ולא נאכל. - שאני התם דליכא דיעות. הכי נמי מסתברא, דהיכא דאיכא דיעות שאני, דקתני סיפא, רבן שמעון בן גמליאל אומר: שני אכסניים אוכלין על שלחן אחד, זה אוכל בשר וזה אוכל גבינה - ואין חוששין. - ולאו אתמר עלה, אמר רב חנין בר אמי אמר שמואל: לא שנו אלא שאין מכירין זה את זה, אבל מכירין זה את זה - אסורים. והני נמי - מכירין זה את זה נינהו - הכי השתא התם - דיעות איכא, שינוי ליכא. הכא - איכא דיעות, ואיכא שינוי.

The Gemara Shabbos Daf 13 (above) Questions whether a husband may share a bed with his wife who is a Niddah if they are wearing garments. The Gemara goes on to explain the rationale behind the question (Why would it be permitted?), the reasoning is that wearing their clothing while sleeping together is a shinui (change from usual conduct) and is therefore comparable to eating milk and meat at the same table with a shinui which is permitted. Thus we see that it was considered the norm to sleep with ones wife without clothing. With clothing would be considered a Shinui. PLEASE NOTE: The Gemara finalizes that sleeping in the same bed even clothed is prohibited during Niddah.

mevaqesh
  • 35,599
  • 2
  • 98
  • 176
user13901
  • 21
  • 1
1

Many Orthodox couples use twin beds vs. queen or king size beds. This is done for practical purposes. During the niddah period, as you have understood, the couple may not share the same bed. Thus, having twin beds makes the separation easier, otherwise, someone would probably have to sleep in a different room. As explained in the comments, the twin beds are pushed together, usually, during the non-niddah period, thus creating one "large bed".

AFAIK, there is no halachic prohibition, per se, to sleep in separate beds during the non-nidah week. However, I have seen in the Talmud (don't recall exact place, offhand) the rule that in general, men should refrain from excessive sex so that women not be turned into "chickens". Thus, it's possible that using separate beds (e.g. Fred & Wilma Flintstone style - with the night table between the beds) may be done as a way to discourage this excessive activity.

DanF
  • 70,416
  • 8
  • 59
  • 244
  • 1
    I did not misuderstand.... these couples do not ever sleep in the same bed, just as I stated in the question. I am not saying it is all Orthodox couples, but I have heard it several times... it may be only the more "yeshivish" and/or "chasidish" ones – Desert Star Dec 30 '14 at 21:32
  • 1
    @DesertStar Right. Some adhere to a "go there, do that, return" lifestyle. – Adám Dec 30 '14 at 21:36
  • @NBZ, yes, that is what I am referring to. So my question remains: is there any source? do these people believe it is halacha? it's very disturbing to me, as it seems the marriage is missing a vital component. I don't understand why a couple would give that up unless there was some halachic reason. Is it reasonable to insist on not following this practice before getting engaged? – Desert Star Dec 30 '14 at 21:37
  • 5
    @DesertStar Re: "I don't understand why a couple would give that up unless there was some halachic reason." This Slate columnist presents non-Halachic reasons. – Isaac Moses Dec 30 '14 at 21:46
  • @IsaacMoses However, I imagine these people do it out of prishus, or even just because they were taught to behave like this. – Adám Dec 30 '14 at 21:58
  • @NBZ, that's what I meant by "give it up"... they get married and aquire the possibility... by never doing it, they are "giving up" that possibility... just like if I offer you a position but you turn it down, you are "giving up" the opportunity I provided you – Desert Star Dec 30 '14 at 22:00
  • @NBZ, please explain this "prishus" and if it is halachic and what the source is – Desert Star Dec 30 '14 at 22:01
  • @DanF, the term "never" is correct. They never sleep in the same bed. I didn't say they never occupied the same bed temporarily to have relations. Please correct your answer to remove your misunderstanding of my question. – Desert Star Dec 30 '14 at 22:19
  • 1
    When a twin bed is linked, then it is "one big bed" and the couple "sleep together". When the woman is in a state of nidah, they must sleep in separate beds per the halachos of nidah and the twin beds are separated. Was this your question? – sabbahillel Dec 30 '14 at 22:35
  • 1
    @sabbahillel, no – Desert Star Dec 30 '14 at 22:36
  • 3
    It's not about turning the women into chickens! – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 01:32
  • @DoubleAA - As I couldn't recall the Gemara exactly, please elaborate on what it is, and, if needed, you can edit my answer, too. – DanF Dec 31 '14 at 03:05
  • I think the chicken thing refers to avoiding frequent copulation, a practice seen by chickens. – Adám Dec 31 '14 at 16:00
  • 1
    the gemara you are looking for is Brakhot 22a, Ben Azzai didn't want to teach a leniency (that nine kabin of water suffice to make a baal keri tahor) so that Torah scholars should not [constantly] be found with their wives like roosters – mbloch Mar 15 '16 at 05:04
1

Despite the basic parameters of the laws of marriage that would basically allow married couples to sleep in the same bed at times, there are those who recommend that married couples keep and use separate beds at all (or nearly all) times. That is, to those that feel this way, there should be a permanent reminder in the bedroom of the importance of family purity.

From this perspective, this is both a matter of personal integrity as well as education for other members of the household (children, especially) and those who may enter the bedroom at times (visitors, cleaning help, etc.).

This is quite apart from the practical matter of needing two beds at certain times. That itself can necessitate a good deal of organizational planning from the interior design perspective - what do you do with two beds when they need to be separated vs. when they can be pushed together, and how do you fit bedroom furniture around this mobile arrangement. Again, my answer is besides this practical issue, there is the consideration of what is appropriate in the bedroom.

Source: Mesorah and guidance from my (non-Hasidic) rabbi when I was engaged.

Seth J
  • 41,606
  • 7
  • 85
  • 245
  • 1
    I don't question there are those of this opinion. I'm told there are those who will ask young kids to draw a picture of their parents' bedroom; if they draw a picture of the beds together, that family gets on the blacklist (for either shidduchim or schools, depending on the version of the story). Personally I vehemently disagree with all of this. – Shalom Dec 31 '14 at 18:57
  • So cuddling in bed is "not appropriate in the bedroom"? – Desert Star Dec 31 '14 at 18:57
  • @Shalom, disagree as vehemently as you like. The question asked about sources, and mine is my rabbi. The implied, but unasked, question, is whether this is normative. My answer is that, among those who follow this opinion, yes. The second question, which I do not have the tools to answer, is whether it is Halachah. – Seth J Dec 31 '14 at 20:19
  • 1
    @desert star No. Cuddling would be fine. Other married activities are fine as well. It would be difficult to procreate otherwise. The question is about sleeping, which is an activity that can be observed by other members of the household, and the necessary question about furniture arrangement, which is something that can be observed by visitors as well. The private stuff is not meant to be observed anyway, so the question of whether that happens in one bed or, somehow, in separate beds, is moot. – Seth J Dec 31 '14 at 20:26
  • @SethJ I strongly suspect that of the Centrist Orthodox couples who keep the beds separately, the majority are doing so because that's what worked for them, not because their rabbi said so. – Shalom Dec 31 '14 at 23:29
  • @Shalom, that's undoubtedly true. It doesn't disprove anything I've said, though. Most centrist Orthodox rabbis will undoubtedly tell any couple that asks them, however, that it is appropriate to have the beds separated when not being used for, um, together-time. – Seth J Jan 01 '15 at 00:07
  • @SethJ beg to differ. I think the average centrist Orthodox rabbi will tell them -- "whatever works for you." – Shalom Jan 01 '15 at 00:56
  • @Shalom I disagree. Maybe it depends on your definition of "centrist" or "rabbi" or "whatever". – Seth J Jan 01 '15 at 01:27
  • @SethJ, why is it "appropriate" to not sleep with your spouse? What is the halachic basis? – Desert Star Jan 01 '15 at 22:45
0

Besides the halachic issues of sleeping together when niddah, there is the cultural fact that in our culture it is unheard of. Frankly, when I found out that non-Newish couples share a bed I was surprised.

Harel13
  • 25,676
  • 4
  • 58
  • 136
  • Welcome to MiYodeya Joseph and thanks for this first answer. Since MY is different from other sites you might be used to, see here for a guide which might help understand the site. Great to have you learn with us! – mbloch Nov 06 '23 at 03:37
  • I think you may have a narrow idea of what "our culture" is. It is certainly not "unheard of" in every Orthodox community. – Desert Star Nov 15 '23 at 13:21
  • Maybe this should have been a comment, but I think it does address the crux of the question, which read to me as "how could something so valued in my culture not be valued in others"? – shmosel Nov 23 '23 at 23:10
-3

In the Babylonian Talmud, the Kethuboth comprise the second tractate of the Order of Nashim, and deal with particular guidelines relating to married life in its various aspects and manifestations. That is, this particular tractate enumerates the privileges and duties of the husband and wife in their mutual relationship from the day of their betrothal.

Thus readers find in the Babylonian Talmud (b. Kethuboth 1:1, I.11.A [Folio 4a]) that the guidelines for married couples are to sleep one with another, except for those periods of mourning and/or menses.

Please click the image below to enlarge.

b. Kethuboth 1:1, I.11.A

To read the complete Folio in English, please click here. To read the complete Folio in the original Aramaic, please click here.

Addendum

The Yerusalem Talmud provides additional detail concerning the expectation of husband and wife sharing the same marital bed. That following comes from Chapter 4 of the Kiddushin (קידושין, "Betrothal"), which deals with the initial stage of marriage and betrothal.

Please click the image below to enlarge.

Kiddushin 4:11, II.1.A

This portion of the tract cites and comments on the relevant Mishnah source, and then provides guidance that suggests that husbands and wives share the same marital bed where physical contact ("flesh touching") may occur. Notwithstanding that they share the same marital bed, they may also cover themselves with their own bedcovers (and therefore be sleeping apart, but in the same bedroom).

REFERENCES:

Neusner, Jacob (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, Kethuboth 1:1, I.11.A

Neusner, Jacob (2008). The Jerusalem Talmud: A Translation and Commentary. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, Kiddushin 4:11, II.1.A.

Joseph
  • 1,600
  • 9
  • 11
  • 1
    Around these parts you'll be understood if you just reference "Kesuvos," I think. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 02:28
  • 2
    In the English link, the footnote said "sleep with him" means "in one room", so it actually seems to reinforce the concept that they are in separate beds, even during the days of purity – Desert Star Dec 31 '14 at 02:51
  • 2
    @Shokhet Perhaps "Kesubos". – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 04:25
  • 2
    I don't quite see how this answers the question? – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 04:25
  • @DoubleAA "the guidelines for married couples are to sleep one with another, except for those periods of mourning and/or menses;" and (at first glance; I've never learned "כתובות" ;) the gemara he quotes seems to support this adequately. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 04:35
  • @Shokhet So what is the answer? – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 04:41
  • 3
    @Shokhet I'm not entirely sure that "sleep with" in the Talmud there need mean in the same bed, and hence I question the adequacy of the support. – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 04:42
  • @DoubleAA OP asked: "Is there any source for this practice [married couples never sleep in the same bed]? Is it halacha?" ....answer: no. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 04:42
  • What does the Aramaic say? – Joseph Dec 31 '14 at 04:42
  • @Joseph That's the original page of the Talmud that you referenced. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 04:42
  • @Shokhet Ah. I don't think it is obvious at all that the Talmud's describing [the impressibility of] their sleeping together means they must do so or that there is no later customs that have developed about the matter. If what you say is accurate, this is quite a poor answer indeed. – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 04:43
  • @DoubleAA I considered that reading of the question, but ultimately concluded that that was not the correct way to read the question. I've been wrong before, and I'll do it again, but I'm fairly certain on this one. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 04:43
  • @DoubleAA there are 4 close votes on the question, three of which are "unclear." Do you think it should be closed until the definition of the phrase "sleep together" is clarified? ....also, I said it was an answer; I didn't necessarily say that it was a good one. I have no clue about later customs that have developed; I've never studied the topic. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 04:47
  • @Shokhet No. That phrase ("sleeps together/with") is found solely in this answer in fact. The question couldn't be clearer AFAICT. – Double AA Dec 31 '14 at 04:48
  • @DoubleAA "never sleep in the same bed"? (from the question) ....the question doesn't ask about "sleep together," I don't think. – MTL Dec 31 '14 at 04:49
  • @DoubleAA - Sir, I found an additional supporting source from the Yerusalem Talmud. V/R, – Joseph Dec 31 '14 at 07:18
  • @Joseph I hope you don't mind that I linked to the original Aramaic Talmud -- I (and I assume most people on this exchange) would prefer to see the source in the original, where possible. I also tried to maintain your style in linking sources. – MTL Jan 01 '15 at 19:51
  • @Shokhet - I appreciate any help (and feedback) you give me -- especially your questions. Happy New Year! Very Respectfully, – Joseph Jan 01 '15 at 22:42
  • A very Happy New Year to you, too, Joseph :) – MTL Jan 01 '15 at 22:49