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Is Bas Kol the heavenly voice always correct and how to identify Bas Kol from whispering coming from demons or evil spirits? I hear many Rabbonim have heard contradictory Bas kol so what is the criteria for judging a Bas Kol, whether its divine or evil?

Loewian
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narnia
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3 Answers3

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As Bruce explained very well above, in the story from Bava Metzia 59b, the Bas Kol doesn't have authority to override halacha. In Eiruvin 13b, there is a story of Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai arguing for three years, and a Bas Kol descending and saying "These and these are the words of the living G-d, and the Halacha is like Beit Hillel", and in this case, we accept the Bas Kol. So why do we accept one Bas Kol and not the other?

The Tosafos (דיבור המתחיל: לא בשמים היא) on Bava Metzia 59b give 2 resolutions

  1. A Bas Kol cannot upset a majority, and therefore the Bas Kol was rejected in the case of R' Eliezer (Bava Metzia), but accepted in the case of Beit Hillel, who had a majority (Eiruvin). The Tosafos further explain that the Bas Kol was only needed to refute Beit Shammai's claim of superiority (and reaffirm Beit Hillel). Beit Shammai were claiming (Yevamot 14a) that since they were intellectually sharper than Beit Hillel, the majority rule didn't apply here.

  2. With the story of Rabbi Eliezer, the Bas Kol was sent down out of respect for Rabbi Eliezer, and not to determine the Halacha. According to Tosafos, this can be seen in the language of Rabbi Eliezer's request.

Rabbi Mendel Weinbach, zt"l, explains (https://ohr.edu/266) this Tosafos beautifully (much better than I can), and delves into the Gemara in both places as well.

Based on these stories, it seems that we follow a Bas Kol that affirms the law (similar to Jewish prophecy). With a Bas Kol that does NOT affirm the law, we do NOT follow it, but it still is valuable for teaching us to respect each other and especially Torah scholars, whether they are "wrong" or "right".

Eitan N
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The Bas Kol could be correct, but it nevertheless lacks the authority to, for example, override a decision of the rabbis. In Bava Metzia 59b, Rabbi Eliezer was trying to prove a point of halacha and attempted to invoke miracles to prove he was correct on that point. The rabbis said that miracles prove nothing. Then, to prove his point, R. Eliezer called on a Bas Kol which declared that he was right. But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: ‘It is not in heaven’ (quoting Deut. 30:12). Rabbi Jeremiah explained that the verse cited means that since the Torah had already been given to us at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because the halacha is that a majority of the rabbis only determines matters in dispute. When Rabbi Natan met Eliyahu HaNavi he asked what G-d's response was and He said, ‘My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me.’

Bruce James
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    How absurd that sounds, considering the fact that Bas Kohl is a heavenly word hence wont speak of things in violation of Torah, Rabbis on the other hand are fallible mortal beings uncomparable to Bas Kol. And this statement is a clear heresy: " Torah had already been given to us at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice" So if a prophet arrives in all high probability he would be rejected Alas by the rabbinim. – narnia Nov 19 '14 at 19:53
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    @narnia What's heresy? Halakha is a human system, not a divine one. – Charles Koppelman Nov 19 '14 at 20:31
  • @Charles, can you elaborate on that – Clint Eastwood Nov 19 '14 at 20:33
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    @narnia, See http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/26425/2, and note that Judaism's epistomological assumptions may not be the same as yours. – Isaac Moses Nov 19 '14 at 20:51
  • @narnia New prophets are not allowed to contradict the Torah. If they do so, they would be considered false prophets. That's how we know that (according to Judaism) Jesus and Mohammad are false prophets. There have been many Jewish prophets, and they never contradicted the Torah that was given at Sinai. On the contrary, they usually showed up to rebuke the Jews for straying from the Torah. – Daniel Nov 20 '14 at 00:03
  • @narnia, No high probability about it. If a prophet claimed that he had a prophecy that said what that Bas Kol said, he would be executed. – Yishai Nov 20 '14 at 02:55
  • Okay - now I'm getting confused -- the recent question on Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai :http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/48478/why-do-beit-shammai-and-beit-hillel-always-argue had an answer that the issue was solved when the Bath Kol said Beit Hillel's views were correct. But in the case in this answer, it was overridden... I don't know, but if I was in ancient Israel arguing an issue with my fellow rabbis and the Voice Of God deigned to answer, I'd listen. – Gary Nov 20 '14 at 04:18
  • Actually, that Bava Metzia story really bothers me, the more I think about it...the egos on those guys! There seems to be a lot written on the issue of discontinued prophecy and revelations...Maybe HaShem withdrew and stopped the Voice because they were just ignoring Him when He was trying to clear up our fallible human confusion and give us a bit of guidance. Sad. – Gary Nov 20 '14 at 04:30
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    @Gary. Prophecy, after Moshe, did not reveal new laws. Sometimes a prophet confirmed a teaching from the Oral tradition re specifics as to how to perform mitzvos; but no new laws were transmitted by G-d via prophets. – Bruce James Nov 20 '14 at 10:02
  • Right...the Voice of HaShem spoke plainly to a bunch of Rabbis to clarify a point/solve an oral Tradition dispute and they rebuked Him! Amazing!! This, the same God who showed Job what's what and who's Who when he tried to bring a lawsuit against Him.."Har, Har, My children have defeated Me?!?!" Doesn't ring anywhere near true, sorry to say...seems more like, to paraphrase Judges a bit "In those days, every majority of Rabbis did what seemed right in their own eyes". Wow. That attitude makes our entire history make a LOT more sense, not letting us have the Land back for 1900 years, etc... – Gary Nov 20 '14 at 18:43
  • @Gary there is a lot of interesting commentary on the topic of prophecy. Eg that after the destruction of the 1st Temple, G-d's spirit, the Ruach HaKoesh, slowly distanced itself from the Temple Mount, as it waited for the Jews to return (spiritually), but eventually gave up, and subsequently the capability of prophecy for anyone was lost. But the issue here is Deut 30:11-12 -- the Torah is NOT in Heaven, nor is it far away that we shoul have to struggle with it; neither is it too difficult to follow. With Free Will and the Torah, we should be able to do right alone without intervention. – Bruce James Nov 21 '14 at 10:23
  • @Bruce James - Right! ...but c'mon, even with Free Will and Torah, when the Creator of Free Will and Originator of Torah decides to interject his 2 cents, especially when(another paraphrase) "there was no open vision, the Word of HaShem was precious"...and they rejected it!!! They listened to Haggai and Zechariah when the First Temple was in ruins, with good results, then, when the Second Temple was in ruins, ignore His communications - the same "still, small voice" that Eliyahu ABSOLUTELY listened to--when they felt like it...no wonder Galut is soooo prolonged... – Gary Nov 21 '14 at 17:25
  • @Gary: If you thought you heard a bas kol, how would you know it was G-d and not your imagination? G-d ceased prophecy, after the survivors of the first exile died out (which would be with the death of the minor prophets who were part of the Anshei Knesset Gedolah. See http://vbm-torah.org/archive/yeru2/29yeru.htm for a nice explanation with sources. – Bruce James Nov 23 '14 at 04:07
  • @Bruce James: ...rerunning across this page after a couple of years, I saw I left yr question hanging--sorry! Well, I don't think I would merit a bas kol, but if I heard one I would probably know it was the real thing because it would definitely sound different from my "reading/thinking voice", and I'd hopefully be able to ask it questions and stuff. But those Rabbis all heard it in unison, and recognized it for what it was, and still did what they did...quite a bit of difference from me or any other single person wondering about the source of a Message. – Gary Aug 13 '16 at 04:10
  • @Gary -- there are many people living on the streets or who even appear normal who hear voices that are different from their "reading/thinking voice." Sometimes the voices tell them to do things that are horrific -- David Berkowitz, for example heard voices from a dog telling him to kill women. But the Torah also identifies crazy people (King David imitated one when he was hiding out from King Saul) living in their time. So I'd like to know if there are rabbinic sources that explains how the people knew the difference between prophets and lunatics. – Bruce James Oct 31 '16 at 17:24
  • @Bruce James - sounds like a good potential question. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!..well, first of all, never mind Rabbinic sources for the time being, but Devarim 18:21-22 says a true prophet will be able to utterly accurately tell of future events, it looks like...makes me think of the question marks hanging above the heads of the people watching Jeremiah breaking pottery in the Hinnom valley or Ezekiel making his bread or just laying there on each side in public..and then after the tragedy, wishing they would've believed them... – Gary Oct 31 '16 at 21:26
  • @Gary If you know the story about the bas kol and "not in heaven!", then you know the ending of the story, quoted above: "He smiled and said, ‘My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me!’" G-d gave us the Torah and set up the system for how we are to interpret it. He likes the system and seems to really like the results as well. You don't approve, but why is that relevant? – MichoelR Mar 09 '22 at 18:58
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Shaarei kedusha part 3 gate 8

When the (Ruach) will dwell on him, he should check that perhaps he is not yet pure and clean and this Ruach is from the "other side" (side of evil), or at the least a mixture of good and evil. And the story of Ben Azai and Ben Zoma (mishnaic sages) who ascended to Pardes is proof. This one can discern through what is revealed to him. If all his words are true or truth and falsehood mixed together, or if his words are Devarim Betalim (useless talk) of matters of this world, or things which are not in line with torah, or the like. Because then, one must push it away from oneself, and also to strengthen more and more in his service until all his things are faithful and with fear of heaven, etc.

And know that in the beginning the Ruach will settle on a man in infrequent intervals. And also they will be simple things which are not deep, and also his words will be few. As time goes by, strengthen yourself in all the details we specified.

ray
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