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I was reading this post the other day, and came across a comment by user DoubleAA who stated in the comments something to the effect of "if the only reason you believe is because of the Kuzari argument of our unbroken mesora, I feel sorry for you". Which got me thinking: What, then, is the better argument for belief in Torah MiSinai? Specifically, what is a proof that doesn't have the same problems as the Kuzari's argument?

Daniel
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WhoKnows
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    Am i on topic? 15 – Double AA Oct 23 '14 at 23:17
  • @DoubleAA well, OP (as edited) isn't asking about you per se... The first question is "what is the better argument"? – הנער הזה Oct 23 '14 at 23:27
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    I don't know where I stand on this issue but it seems to me that Double AA's statement was to the effect that "if you rely on a proof, and this is the proof you are hanging your hat on, and it is easily refuted, then you have nothing left." The claim isn't that there is a better proof (or isn't) but that if it all depends on this one then that's a bad idea. – rosends Oct 23 '14 at 23:45
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    Actually, if we edit out the @DoubleAA -specific content from this question, I think it's actually really just a dupe of the linked question. WhoKnows, perhaps consider offering a bounty on that question? – Daniel Oct 23 '14 at 23:53
  • While it happens to be that your question is specifically about the Revelation at Sinai, and the other is about Judaism, I think they end up at the same place, and I have to agree that it is a dupe. – Y     e     z Oct 24 '14 at 00:17
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    I don't think it's a dupe. That question was Judaism vs other religions. This question is Kuzari vs other proofs. – user6591 Oct 24 '14 at 00:31
  • (http://judaism.stackexchange.com/revisions/17903/1) – Double AA Oct 24 '14 at 05:21
  • @DoubleAA not sure I understand that link you just shared... Any chance you can chime in with what you meant by your comment instead of letting other people conjecture? (I'd be more than happy to add a bounty of what not...) – WhoKnows Oct 24 '14 at 05:52
  • @Danno Ah, interesting. Makes sense. But then I'd love to know what else DoubleAA relies on... – WhoKnows Oct 24 '14 at 05:56
  • @Daniel How can I add a bounty on another question? Or do you mean this one? – WhoKnows Oct 24 '14 at 05:56
  • @WhoKnows You can read about setting bounties here. Do note that I am in no need of extra reputation. (The link before was just sharing the other time I was the topic of a question here. Maybe someday I'll get my own tag :)) – Double AA Oct 24 '14 at 06:01
  • @DoubleAA Hey, first, just want to thank you for all you do around here. Second, could you please, please clarify what you meant by your comment on that other question when you implied you had a better proof than the mesora? It's killing me... :) – WhoKnows Oct 24 '14 at 06:32
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    @DoubleAA At the very least, if that other user was correct in that you were simply saying faith should not be based on any one proof alone, just say so :) If a more elaborate answer is a matter of time, I'd be happy to pay you for yours. This stuff is very important to me. You seem to be hesitant to share this Torah though, for some reason... – WhoKnows Oct 24 '14 at 07:08

2 Answers2

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main thing is to accept the mesora of our elders as explained in the intro to chovos halevavos, but if you want to delve in chakira and have proper guidance and are motivated to strengthen your faith then:

First thing that should be clear is that G-d exists. This can be demonstrated either through logical inquiry or more safely through studying the divine wisdom in nature. (the extreme complexity underlying all life and that a bounded random process could not possibly have produced such mind boggling complexity. i tried to prepare something here for whatever its worth)

Once this is clear and we are certain that He designed our bodies with an infinite wisdom, then it must also be that prophecy is necessary for Him to tell us what this is all about and this leads us to the most popular book on the subject, which has been translating into more books than any other book, and which is the mother of all monotheistic religions. then we also notice that this book bears the same marks of infinite wisdom as in nature, and we also notice the unique cultural survival of Judaism as pointed out by Rabbi Becher here, and the prophecies in the torah having been fulfilled, etc.

here's also a relevant quote from the pas lechem commentary of chovos halevavos shaar yichud ch.7

(Pas Lechem: He began with the title: "powerful" because according to our understanding, He existed before everything, since immediately after we grasp that there exists a Creator who created the world from nothing, we will immediately recognize His power, namely, the act of creating something from nothing...After this, when we reflect on the details of creation, and we study them and their parts - we will see signs of His wisdom and we will know that He is wise. Afterwards, we contemplate His providence in governing the world, we will know that He is living and among us always. Understand that all of these descriptions are obligatory and follow one after the other, with the creation of the world as their first source)

ray
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  • Interesting. I like this one a lot. Thanks. Would still love @DoubleAA answer though. – WhoKnows Oct 25 '14 at 21:44
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    main thing is to accept the mesora of our elders as explained in the intro to chovos halevavos citation? – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:44
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    Once this is clear and we are certain that He designed our bodies with an infinite wisdom, then it must also be that prophecy is necessary for Him to tell us what this is all about Maybe we are supposed to figure it out on our own? – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:46
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    this leads us to the most popular book on the subject, which has been translating into more books [sic] than any other book So if, say, Harry Potter is ever translated into more languages than the Bible, would the argument fall? Why is the number of translations even relevant? – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:47
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    and which is the mother of all monotheistic religions DO you have a source for this? Zoroastrianism is sometimes regarded as the first monotheistic religion, although it is often regarded as dualistic. Why does it even make a difference if Judasim was the first monotheistic religion. Maybe hilkheta k'batrai :) – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:51
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    then we also notice that this book bears the same marks of infinite wisdom as in nature What are these marks of infinite wisdom? How could your finite brain even determine that any thing contains infinite wisdom? – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:52
  • The entire last paragraph is irrelevant and has nothing to do with Judasim. – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:53
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    main thing is to accept the mesora of our elders Let's say i'm a baal teshuva or a ger, or descended from them, why should I accept the mesora of Jewish elders over the elders of any other religion. Even if I happen to be Jewish, and the recipient of a tradition, why should I trust the Jewish tradition over any other? – mevaqesh Oct 16 '16 at 20:56
  • @mevaqesh because it can be verified but only when a person reaches sufficient level of intelligence and truly seeks the truth. – ray Oct 19 '16 at 20:06
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    @ray I don't want to distract from some of the more egregious mistakes, but regarding the last point, why should one trust the tradition of one set of elders, over another? Just because some guy on the internet reassured him that when he reaches some future level of knowledge he will agree with their position? – mevaqesh Oct 19 '16 at 20:12
  • @mevaqesh good question. it's the way God made the world. a person is born without intellect and receives what his parents give him. after he matures intellectually he can seek out the truth on his own if he wishes though admittedly this is dangerous for one who is not extremely wise and discerning. for as the torah tells us "a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise". and is there no greater bribe than how one wishes to live his life? – ray Oct 19 '16 at 20:17
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    @ray though admittedly this is dangerous for one who is not extremely wise and discerning Why is it any more dangerous than blindly accepting that which the first group claims? – mevaqesh Oct 19 '16 at 20:20
  • @mevaqesh for other religions yes. but in judaism it is not just blind faith. by following the mitzvot and studying torah one experiences Godliness. for God is mashpia holiness etc. to he who observes and studies the torah. so for many people this is enough "proof" – ray Oct 19 '16 at 20:31
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    @ray So it sounds like the value of listening to ones elders doesn't stand alone, but rather, is predicated on something else; the experience you describe. Consider, therefore, editing it into your answer. – mevaqesh Oct 19 '16 at 21:07
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Belief can come from a personal revelation. A good friend of mine was planning to commit suicide on our way home from school in 10th grade. He asked of God that a particular song on play next on the radio if God cared and did not want him to kill himself, and that song came on.

Belief can come from instinctive conviction and commitment. This past year a good friend and I carpooled with a very smart, very skeptical Jew, who very methodically and academically ripped any rational argument for judaism to shreds, and called in to question the whole validity of the Torah. My friend had a serious crisis of faith after one ride. God suddenly be came a demiurge, an opiate of the masses, and a passing fantasy in man's search for meaning, alongside his Omnipresent self. He began to cry, and swore with God's name, and heaven and earth as his witnesses that he would be a jew and uphold Judaism were he the last jew a live, standing before a firing squad, who would spare him if he forsook Judaism, in the face of undeniable evidence of its fallaciousness.

Belief can be a rational choice, based on experience. One can choose choose Judaism because, having studied the Torah they cannot deny that it improves my life and character, and they feel that the set of rules it lays out for mankind, if properly enforced, would do the same for the world.

Baby Seal
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  • If this is not the type of answer that is being looked for, I will delete. Wasn't sure so I thought I'd just go for it. – Baby Seal Oct 24 '14 at 15:39
  • Great stories. I also have experiences like this I could add. But to the scientific/nonbelievers this does not prove anything. – user6591 Oct 24 '14 at 17:03
  • @user6591 Agreed, see my comment above. I think the 3rd point could be formalized to something of a proof, if need be. – Baby Seal Oct 24 '14 at 18:17
  • That's so funny cause i thought number three was the least powerful! Guess that why there are so many flavors of us Jews:) Here's a thought that I think about sometimes. The historic proof which is our existence. No other group has at once been so exalted with praise yet absolutely reviled, no group has been so and so low over and over again. Etc etc. Don't the facts prove themselves? – user6591 Oct 24 '14 at 18:44
  • @user6591 I've heard that too, actually from some famous somebody – Baby Seal Oct 24 '14 at 19:13
  • Oh yeah? I'm curious who, if you remember. There are other things too. For instance, the drasha about 4/5ths of bnei yisrael not making it out and the fact that our people have consistently kept to around that number, whether ten out of twelve tribes disappearing or 9 out of 10 Jews in America being irreligious and 8 out of 10 in Israel. Stuff like that makes me go hhhmmmm loud enough that I don't hear the carbon dating screaming at the top it's lungs. – user6591 Oct 24 '14 at 19:27
  • @user6591 http://www.aish.com/h/iid/48964091.html ? – Baby Seal Oct 24 '14 at 19:53
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    Not bad answers at all... Interesting honestly. But I wonder why @DoubleAA won't just chime in and put an end to all this... – WhoKnows Oct 25 '14 at 21:03
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    @WhoKnows here, read the end: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/13767/4682 – Baby Seal Oct 26 '14 at 00:31