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This past motzei Shabbos, in the Shul where I davened, there were a number of young men who were lining up to be included in the communal havdallah done at the end of Maariv. The person making havdallah made the beracha on the besamim and then passed the besamim around for the assembled to smell it. However, before it had made it all the way around, he continued on to the beracha on the candle light, to which they needed to respond amen and to use the light. Some of them, as far as I could tell, had not yet gotten the besamim by the time havdallah was over.

Did those who did not smell the besamim before answering amen to other berachos, and holding their hands up to the candle light, make an interruption which invalidated their inclusion in the beracha on the besamim? If this does work, why is it not an interruption?

Y     e     z
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  • I know what is supposed to be done is smell besamim after havdala is over....but I forgot where I saw this.... – MTL Sep 08 '14 at 02:51
  • @Shokhet that's what they did. I am wondering if/why this works. Sounds like you are saying it does, so (assuming you are correct) that limits the question to why. – Y     e     z Sep 08 '14 at 02:54
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    I still can't prove that it is correct....so finding out that (all right, if) I'm correct is still part of the question. – MTL Sep 08 '14 at 02:56
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    You can say Havdalla even without spices or a candle. What did you mean by "...still fulfill their havdallah obligation"? – Double AA Sep 08 '14 at 03:21
  • I've seen people doing the same thing in my shul. First of all, besomim isn't m'akev the havdallah, which is the last berochoh, so yes, they are yotze havdallah. About being included in the berocho, what a lot of people do, even in a normal case, is say the berocho of besamim themselves, so if you do that, it shouldn't be a problem. – user613 Sep 08 '14 at 09:08
  • @DoubleAA I was assuming besamim is a requirement for fulfilling havdallah al hakos. Is that not correct? (I'm getting the impression from the attitude of the comments that it isn't correct.) – Y     e     z Sep 08 '14 at 17:44
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    @YEZ Definitely not. All you need is a Kos. Besamim and Ner can be done any time on Saturday night, though they are traditionally said together with the Kos (See Shulchan Arukh OC 298 or so). But you don't need to know that to ask your question. I just didn't know what you meant. Now I do :) – Double AA Sep 08 '14 at 17:44
  • @DoubleAA I never knowed that. Makes the question of why it's not a hefsek in the boreh pri hagafen stronger. – Y     e     z Sep 08 '14 at 17:51
  • @DoubleAA did I violate the ex-post-facto rule with my change viz-a-viz existing answer? (Since existing answer didn't really address the question, but I removed the part it tried to address) – Y     e     z Sep 08 '14 at 17:53
  • The answer didn't have any upvotes so IIRC you're ok. I might be mistaken though. Gots to run now... – Double AA Sep 08 '14 at 18:00

3 Answers3

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The principle at work here is shome'a ka'one (listening is like speaking), Sukkah 38b. The people should have the intention to fulfill their obligation through the leader and the leader should have the intention to fulfill their obligation as well. The listeners must hear the entire blessing and after the blessings respond with Amen and they are yotze. Whether or not there is an interruption in some cases is an argument between Rashi in Sukkah 38b and Tosfot in Brachot 21b, and this might differ on your local accepted posek.
Yalkut Yosef 216.8 sites an example where it would be an interruption if they added passages after the blessing of besamim but before smelling and 297.6 where it explains it is forbidden to speak during havdala.

Generally if they did not speak and waiting for the opportunity to smell the besamim even tough they said amen to the next blessing there is no interruption because their obligation is already fulfilled through the leader. An example of this is Yalkut Yosef 295.3 where the leader is the person responsible to drink the wine after havdala and the people fulfill their obligation after the leader drinks the required amount.

AZav_nov
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I believe that brachot that require an action following it cannot be interrupted, except for things that are needed to fulfill that action. This is true for the person making the blessing as well as those who answer "Amen" to become part of it.

For example, if the mavdil (person making havdallah) interrupted between the bracha and smelling the spices, the fact that everyone answered "amen" would be invalidated in your being motzi in the bracha, b/c the mavdil would have to make a new bracha, anyway.

In this case, this is a bracha for which the action of the mavdil cannot exempt you from performing the same action. I.e. - it's not like Kiddush where you don't have to drink the wine, also to be yotzei Kiddush. You have to smell the besamim, yourself. Thus, if you answer "amen" to the candle's bracha, you have interrupted your besamim bracha, which means you would need to make your own. Had you not answered, "Amen", to the 2nd bracha, you'd be fine, except, possibly, if it takes a long time between the bracha and the time you smell the besamim. I don't know, offhand what that time limit is, but, in typical cases, unless you're at a huge "Carlebach style" Havdallah with hundreds of people, I don't think you'd exceed the time limit, anyway.

DanF
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  • "For example, if the mavdil (person making havdallah) interrupted between the bracha and smelling the spices, the fact that everyone answered "amen" would be invalidated in your being motzi in the bracha, b/c the mavdil would have to make a new bracha, anyway." I'm not sure if this is true in your case, but your rule is definitely not true. It is possible for someone to be motzi someone else in a bracha without being yotzei himself. – Daniel Jul 07 '15 at 12:22
  • "In this case, this is a bracha for which the action of the mavdil cannot exempt you from performing the same action." Why do you say this? "I don't know, offhand what that time limit is, but, in typical cases, unless you're at a huge "Carlebach style" Havdallah with hundreds of people, I don't think you'd exceed the time limit, anyway." Why do you say this? – Daniel Jul 07 '15 at 12:25
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Being as it is a birchas hanehenin there is a definite hefsek and they were forbidden to smell without new bracha. see שולחן או''ח ס' רטז and see משנה ברורה סיף א source is from גמרא ברכות דף מג that states just like one must make a blessing on food so to on a good smell. see שולחן ערוך ס'רו סיף ג that there must not be any interruption between the blessing and what you are making the blessing for (eat, drink, smell)

talmid chuchem
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  • Since the vast majority of us don't know you, we have no reason to take your word on this. So you'd do well to [edit] into your answer a source for its claim. – msh210 Dec 07 '15 at 04:38
  • @msh210 And if we knew him, we wouldn't ask for a source? – Lee Apr 05 '16 at 10:22
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    @Lee, sorry, I shoulda said "don't know who you are". If I knew he was a great posek, I'd likely not ask for a source. – msh210 Apr 05 '16 at 12:59
  • @msh210 B"H MiYodeya will see the day that great poseqim are among its users! – Lee Apr 05 '16 at 13:00