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The Torah She'bicsav and Torah She'ba'al Peh discuss sorcery/necromancy/witchcraft. Assuming that those activities were actually harnessing some sort of supernatural power in order to perform supernatural activities, do such things exist today?

I am mainly interested in explicit sources discussing this topic or sources that implicitly imply that such powers still exist (and are accessed) in the past thousand years or so.

mevaqesh
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Gavriel
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3 Answers3

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Rabbi Yaakov Hillel, who is considered the expert on the subject in the Jewish world. He even wrote a book against such things called "Faith and Folly". Nevertheless, even he concedes that such things do exist even today. Here is an excerpt of his words from an audio lecture which he gave on the topic: (at 46:01) "sometimes some of these people seem to have some sort of power of intuition. they can be quite prophetic. impressively. they can know hidden things. sometimes I've checked it out and I found out they have well organized system of obtaining information (i.e. they are charlatans) ... but others really have this type of power... (skipping to 51:18) we should not be impressed when we see someone who knows hidden things...there are these types of things. It exists. but that's not what impresses us."

from: http://dafyomireview.com/chovos/jewish_views_on_evolution.htm

would just like to add that I have witnessed real examples of this stuff personally.

ray
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  • Could you please try to find a better source of Hillel's remarks without resorting to linking to a anti-scientific article? – Sklivvz Sep 03 '14 at 13:16
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    @Sklivvz It's his own article. – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 16:16
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    @DoubleAA shouldn't self-promotion be openly disclosed? – Sklivvz Sep 03 '14 at 17:04
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    @Sklivvz Wouldn't be bad. That said, if this exact post was posted by anyone else it wouldn't be deleted. Self-promotion becomes problematic when you say "read this awesome article" or "this app is a must have". Here it is a completely objective citation (I'm not commenting on the objectivity of the content). <--- IMHO – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 17:07
  • @DoubleAA whatever. i deleted it if u prefer – ray Sep 03 '14 at 17:50
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    @ray Your quotation needs a source. Removing the source is not a good solution. – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 17:59
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    @Sklivvz what's wrong with anti-scientific? this is a jewish Q&A site, and jewish views are necessarily going to conflict with science which has an atheistic basis. – ray Sep 03 '14 at 18:34
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    There nothing wrong with different opinions, but, no matter the site, demonstrably wrong information is not making the internet better... especially if it's totally unrelated to the answer. – Sklivvz Sep 03 '14 at 19:06
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    @Sklivvz oh really. please demonstrate then. we can take it in chat if you wish. and BTW, that just happened to be where the quote was. would it have been better if i left out the source? – ray Sep 03 '14 at 20:09
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    @ray No! Always better to have a source. He is just recommending you include a better source. – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 20:30
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    it's a very good source. Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb and other very good rabbis. just skip the stuff i wrote if for whatever reason u prefer – ray Sep 04 '14 at 18:00
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    would just like to add that I have witnessed real examples of this stuff personally. Regarding your supernatural experiences, see http://www.livescience.com/14904-paranormal-experiences-hint-ghosts.html – mevaqesh Jul 29 '16 at 17:23
  • Remember huge numbers of otherwise honest people claim to have had experiences relating to other religions or beliefs that you don't share. Unless God is playing a massive practical joke, we must learn to be somewhat skeptical in evaluating even our own experiences. – mevaqesh Jul 29 '16 at 17:31
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    Nevertheless, even he concedes that such things do exist even today? Of course a mystic would believe in the presence of mystical phenomenea. This sentence would make more sense if it said something like R. Yihya Qafih z"l devoted his life to rooting out superstition but nevertheless even he concedes that such things do exist even today. – mevaqesh Jul 29 '16 at 17:35
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    @mevaqesh he's not saying what he believes. he's saying what he investigated and witnessed first hand. – ray Jul 30 '16 at 20:34
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    @ray That distinction is completely facile. The question is not whether phenomena exist, (or accounts of them), the question is how one relates to them. See the links I provided. The relationship of R. Hillel is one of belief; as consistent with his philosophy. I remind you that if you believe that every story or account of an "experience" reflects genuine supernatural phenomena, then the you have to include those of religions and beliefs contrary to yours. If you are interested in experts in the investigation of the so called paranormal, I would recommend a professional like James Randi. – mevaqesh Jul 31 '16 at 02:38
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The most famous first stop on this discussion the gloss of the Vilna Goan on the Shulchan Orach Yoreh Deah siman 179 note 13. He claims that everyone since the Rambam disagreed with the Rambam's position that there is no such thing as magic.

msh210
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user6591
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    How does this answer the question? The Gra writes that the Rambam was wrong about there being no magic in the times of the Gemara! – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 04:15
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    Thats a very modern way of trying to adress the issue, but I would disagree wholeheartedly. The Machlokes was a fundamental one about the possibility of magic existing at all or not. The Rambam said only fools believe in it and went so far as to say all the magic in Mitzrayim was only slight of hand. The Gra brings proof to the reality of magic by citing many stories in the gemara... – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 11:47
  • If we were to separate the realities based on the times then the Gra has no proof from the gemara about biblical times, and the Rambam did not need to go so far as dismissing biblical magic based on his own observations in his time. – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 11:48
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    @user6591 The Gra would have a proof of there was a declining progression of abilities. And is it true that the Rambam dismissed biblical magic based on his own observations in his time? – Gavriel Sep 03 '14 at 14:27
  • @user6591 If you think they both would not expect magic to come into and out of existence willy-nilly, then your question are answered. And as Gavriel implies above, the Rambam might have thought magic didn't exist on a priori grounds. – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 16:11
  • Like I said it was a fundamental belief of the Rambam that no spiritual power other than God can exist. We can't play silly games by saying here yes here no it left it came back it kinda worked it kinda didn't work. All of this is possible if you don't take the actual opinions stated into account. – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 17:18
  • See the wording of Rambam in Yad Hachazaka ch 11 of avoda zara, halacha 16 'whoever believes in these things (magic) and the like and believes in their heart that they are true but the Torah outlawed them is only a fool missing daas & is included amongst the women & children who's daas is not complete... – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 17:57
  • However the people with chochma and complete daas know with conclusive proof that all these things that the Torah outlawed are not thongs of wisdom but are worthless that the fools are drawn after and destroy the paths of truth due to them. And therefore the Torah said when admonishing these sins 'tamim tihiyeh im Hashem Elokecha'. – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 18:02
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    @user6591 I agree with you that the Rambam would say it never existed and still doesn't. The question is: according to those opinions that thought it existed back then, does it exist now? You haven't addressed that at all in this answer! – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 18:05
  • If the Gra was bold enough to stand up after this and say he and everyone else does believe in it, and it was only the Rambam getting drawn after Aristotle that made him say these things, then I think they they all deserve some props and we can respectfully allow each one his own beliefs, without trying to make one big chulent out of their opinions and pretend it wasn't a gloves off argument with each side berating the other's intelligence. – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 18:06
  • Ah. But if it did, it always did and always will. If it didn't, it never did and never will. Unless God changes the world order which I don't think should be on the table, do you? And especially being that the Gra lived a scant couple hundred years ago. Its hard to say it changed to the system Aristotle prematurely guessed it was. – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 18:11
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    @user6591 The Gra doesn't claim (there at least) that it was active in his time. You have only brough evidence that it was active back in the days of the Gemara, and we know many many many instances where Metziut nowdays differs from what is described then. – Double AA Sep 03 '14 at 20:32
  • Thats true. Scratch the last point. But don't you agree that it is an argument about the actual idea about the reality of magic? – user6591 Sep 03 '14 at 20:40
  • There is a lot of confusion about the Rambam's opinion on Kishuf. The Rambam writes (Yesodei Hatorah 8:2) that miracles could be performed through Kishuf – michael Sep 05 '14 at 10:05
  • Kishuf according to the Rambam means trickery and slight of hand. There is no proof from Yesodei Hatorah 8:3 otherwise. – user6591 Sep 05 '14 at 18:07
  • Some learn in the Rambam that he's not disputing the existence of the occult so much as negating its value. – shmosel Jan 19 '23 at 08:14
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there have been cases of dibuks (spirits of the dead "stuck" in this world) from reliable sources. The book Reb Elchonon (Artscroll) talks about how he (Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman) was involved in exorcising one. He would relate the story every purim.

So it looks like the occult is still around us.

albert
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  • I always wondered about the dibbuk stories... do you know of anyone who explains what that's all about? – Gavriel Sep 07 '14 at 17:32
  • @Gavriel no. but from what i reckon it's something about lost souls who cannot get into gehinom or something like that – albert Sep 08 '14 at 07:56
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    @Gavriel In Reb Yaakov Kaminetsky's pirush on maseches Avos he says in the name of Reb Elchonon who was told by the Chafetz Chayim that the aforementioned dibuk would be the last one. The power of tumaah is only as great as its parallel to the power of tahara and due to yeridas hadoros, the world is not worthy any longer. – user6591 Sep 15 '14 at 14:01
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    See sefer minchat yehuda where he discusses at great length how he treated people who were suffering from dibbukim. Also see the dates of the different stories. For those who don't know the author of the above mentioned sefer is R' Yehuda Faataia who was known as one of the leading kabbalists of his times. (1859-1942) – Ibber Chochem Feb 17 '18 at 21:26