3

Most of this question comes from Moznaim Rambam Mishneh Torah Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 2:5

In Hilchos Teshuva it says.

"Five individuals are described as minnim:

a) one who says there is no God or ruler of the world; b) one who accepts the concept of a ruler, but maintains that there are two or more c) one who accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form; d) one who maintains that He was not the sole First Being and Creator of all exstence;...

Look at this question which says more things about how one becomes a min. How does one become a Min?

Qoute from Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 2:5 from mechon-mamre about what happens to a min וְכֵן הַמִּינִים מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל, אֵינָן כְּיִשְׂרָאֵל לְדָבָר מִן הַדְּבָרִים. וְאֵין מְקַבְּלִין אוֹתָן בִּתְשׁוּבָה, לְעוֹלָם--שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "כָּל-בָּאֶיהָ, לֹא יְשׁוּבוּן; וְלֹא-יַשִּׂיגוּ, אָרְחוֹת חַיִּים" (משלי ב,יט). Similarly, Jewish minnim are not considered to be Jews with regard to any matter. Their repentance should never be accepted, as [implied by Proverbs 2:19]: "None that go to her repent, nor will they regain the paths of life."

(the notes in the Moznaim Rambam says:)

"Their acceptance should never be accepted" The commentaries have pointed out a contradiction between these statements and the Rambam's statements in Hilchos Teshuva 3:14: "When does the statement that these individuals do not have a portion in the world to come apply? When they die without having repented. However, if such a person repents from his wicked deeds and dies as a Baal-Teshuvah, he will merit the world to come, for nothing can stand in the way of Teshuvah. Even if he denies God's existence throughout his life and repents in his final moments, he merits a portion in the world to come as implied by [Isaiah 57:19] "Peace, peace, to the distant and the near,' declares God.I will heal him.'"

Any wicked person, apostate, or the like, who repents, whether in an open, revealed manner or in private, will be accepted as implied by [Jeremiah 3:22] "Return, faithless children." [We may infer] that even if one is still faithless, as obvious from the fact that he repents in private and not in public, his Teshuvah will be accepted."

this apparent contradiction was brought to the Rambam's attention during his lifetime. In one of his Responsa (101) he resolved the issue by explaining that his statements in Hilchos Havodas Kochavim refer to the attitude which should be adopted by the Jewish People. They should NEVER regard such an individual as a Baal-Teshuvah, because it is possible he is merely feigning repentance in order to gain public acceptance.

In contrast, in Hilchos Teshuvah, the Rambam is referring to the acceptance by God, sees the true feeling of every individual. If his repentance is sincere, regardless of the severity of his previous sins, God will accept him. (Note also the commentary of the Lechem Mishneh and the Responsa of the Radbaz, Vol. V, 1518, which offer similar explanations.)

Proverbs 2:19]: "None that go to her repent, nor will they regain the paths of life."

Avoda zarah 17a questions: Since they will never "Repent" how could they be expected to "regain the paths of life"? The Talmud answers: "Even after they repent, they will not "Regain the path of life"... - i.e they will die

וְאָסוּר לְסַפַּר עִמָּהֶן וּלְהָשִׁיב עֲלֵיהֶן תְּשׁוּבָה כְּלָל, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "אַל-תִּקְרַב, אֶל-פֶּתַח בֵּיתָהּ" It is forbidden to talk to them or to reply to them at all, as [Proverbs 5:8] states: "Do not come close to her door."

And quoting Matt in one of his comments in the question I mentioned above:

"Hilchos Mamrim 3:1 two important ones: 1. they aren't included among the Jewish people, so any halakha that requires a Jew cannot be done by such a person, and 2. they should be killed (remember, this site isn't meant for practical advice- please don't kill anyone. The Chazon Ish and other say that second halakha no longer applies"

So my question is:

  1. Most non-religious people either do not believe in (look above: Hilchos Teshuva) a) That there is a God b) one who maintains that He was not the sole First Being and Creator of all exstencene c) does not believe in Techias Hamasim. So if I ask any Jewish guy do you believe in God? (or any of the other 2 questions) and he responds No then am I supposed to "It is forbidden to talk to them or to reply to them at all, as [Proverbs 5:8] states: "Do not come close to her door." And "1. they aren't included among the Jewish people, so any halakha that requires a Jew cannot be done by such a person"

  2. According to Rambam's Responsa (See above) then there is no such thing as a Baal-Teshuva correct? What about all those people who are baal teshuva should we never talk to them and "Do not come close to her door?

onewho accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form; d) one who maintains that He was not the sole First Being and Creator of all exstence

Community
  • 1
user6781
  • 3,325
  • 1
  • 13
  • 45
  • 1
    I'm not sure where you got the number for the Teshuva of the Rambam, in the Blau edition it's number 264 – הנער הזה Aug 01 '14 at 13:40
  • and just to clarify, though I think you know this: the Gemara means that they won't be able to live a long life, not that they die (i.e. cut off) in the afterlife – הנער הזה Aug 01 '14 at 13:41
  • @Matt your 1st comment. What are you referring to? @ – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 13:42
  • @Matt 2nd comment. That is what I guessed (the words I used was from the book) Thanks for clarifying it for me. – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 13:43
  • 1
    you wrote about the Rambam "in one of his Responsa (101)" - I don't know which version has it as number 101. I have the Blau and Freidman editions, and the particular letter that you're referring to is in Blau 264 – הנער הזה Aug 01 '14 at 13:44
  • Thanks. But for some reason in Moznaim all it said was Responsa (101) – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 13:50
  • 2
    We don't ignore them. If they are wealthy, and willing to make a substantial donation, some yeshiva will honor them at their annual banquet or name a wing for them. I'm only half-joking. Rabbi Emanuel Feldman's son, Amram Feldman, zt'l, discussed this issue with a classmate of his from Ner Israel. The classmate's plan was to write-off the non-frum. Amram said: "Do you remember the really old plaques in the [yeshiva's] hallway of major contributors? Do you think even one of them was a shomer shabbos? They weren't! We can't write off the non-frum." – Bruce James Aug 01 '14 at 14:26
  • @BruceJames . If you have a serious point to make, please make it in a straightforward and respectful manner. – LN6595 Feb 03 '15 at 00:04
  • 1
    @LN6595 -- There was a very serious point made in my comment; two actually. I'm sorry you didn't read past the first sentence. We cannot on one hand disparage the non-observant and then still expect them to fund our yeshivos and other institutions. That is hypocritical. The second point is that it is a long-standing practices of our sages to reach out to the non-frum for one purpose or another. And yes, you and I have both been to yeshiva or shul banquets where someone who is not frum, but made a nice donation, was honored. If you don't think so, you probably missed it. – Bruce James Feb 03 '15 at 14:41
  • 1
    @BruceJames. You make a good point. Thank you for sharing. – LN6595 Feb 03 '15 at 20:44

3 Answers3

14

No, you are not supposed to ignore most non-religious Jews.

Rambam Hilchos Mamrim 3:3:

אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו--הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה

However the children of those who are mistaken, as well as their grandchildren, that their fathers mislead them and they were born in an heretical philosophy, and were raised in it -- they are like a child who was captive among the non-Jews and the non-Jews raised them in their religion, which is an ones [forced against their will] - because they raised him in their mistake. And even though he hears afterwards that he was a Jew, and he sees Jews and their religion, he is like an ones, because he was raised on their mistake. Similarly all those who follow in the ways of their mistaken fathers. Therefore, it is proper to return them to Teshuva, and to attract them with peaceful manners, until they return to the the Torah.

That applies to 99% of anyone non-religious you will meet today. It can even apply to someone who was raised in a culturally religious home, as what they were taught about religion in the home might not match up with the external dress or Shabbos observance or other such external signs that lead you to such assumptions that they really learned this correctly and are rejecting it.

Community
  • 1
Yishai
  • 31,937
  • 1
  • 62
  • 130
  • Thanks So much! So your saying that any person who went off the derech (to the extent above) then you are not allowed to talk to that person nor ever forgive him? – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 13:52
  • @user6781, no, someone who went off the derech may have those categories you ascribed to them, but they may not. It is going to depend on some more nuanced circumstances, and some of the details of that also depend on specific Hashkafa issues, and specific psak. That is what I was getting at with my last paragraph. – Yishai Aug 01 '14 at 13:56
  • So really how can you tell if someone is a Min or not? Asking them if they believe in God is one thing, asking them if you were taught it is a different story. – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 14:00
  • 3
    @user6781, CYLOR. It really is a case-by-case thing, and a matter for Psak, like most anything else. You wouldn't just look up a Rambam and decide if a a specific stain was Nidda or if a chicken was Kosher. How much more so in deciding if a Jew is Kosher. – Yishai Aug 01 '14 at 14:02
  • I feel like searching on this matter enough. If a person meets a off-the-derech teen then maybe no one is allowed to speak to that guy. For example if you go to a supermarket and you buy something from a not specifically kosher brand and decides that if it has a OU sign great if not to bad I will never know. No that does not make sense you have to check if it is kosher or not. Same with a Jew shouldn't we be more careful? – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 14:13
  • @user6781, but if you ignore the off-the-derech teen, and he was in the category of "it is proper to return them to Teshuva, and to attract them with peaceful manners" then you also have a problem. Often a stringency has a built-in leniency to it, unlike just skipping a random product on the supermarket aisle. You also have an issue of a Chezkas Kashrus (see Rambam Teshuva 4:4) that doesn't just go away because you see someone walking without a yalmuka and tzitzis. Anyway, much has been written on this by many great Rabbis, and I suggest you consult with a Rabbi for direction. – Yishai Aug 01 '14 at 14:22
  • My question was not directed to me (i.e that I should search) (sorry if I made it look like that) it was more on how can people not do it? 2. But if you accept the off-the-derech teen, and he was in the category of "it is not proper to return them to teshuva and to ignore them etc.) then you also have a problem 3. I agree that you have to look very closely and you have to ask a rabbi but my question is why don't people do it more often and accept everyone? 4. Do you have any good books where I can read all about his by a great Rabbi?
    • – user6781 Aug 01 '14 at 14:33
  • @user6781, no need to ping when you are writing under someone's post. Anyway, your questions get to the Hashkafa question - where do you lean in case of doubt, and how much doubt needs to be there in today's circumstances. I'll try to think of some books on the subject. – Yishai Aug 03 '14 at 03:53