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I am relating my question to Hashem and Arabs.

Offhand, I thought that Islam claims ties to Yisma'el. If true, I don't know how or why it makes that claim. If it's all Arabs, even non-Muslims, how do we know this claim is true? Is there Biblical, Talmudic or some other Judaic source that proves this?

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DanF
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    There are various midrashim and commentaries that connect the biblical narrative's Ishmaelites with Arabs. I don't want to be championing consensus or anything, but I don't think there are any huge disputes over this claim today. Still, a very interesting question that deserves clarification (in the evidence of the claim) and citations. – rosenjcb Jul 31 '14 at 15:07
  • http://www.hebron.co.il/tora/tor9.html – Gershon Gold Jul 31 '14 at 15:13
  • @GershonGold - Very interesting article. Thanks. I agree with his point about Me'arat Hamachpela, but he may have missed something. Need to think it over. He doesn't directly answer my question, other than the 1st sentence which SORT of gets to the point, but not quite. – DanF Jul 31 '14 at 15:33
  • I did not put it as an answer as I did not feel it answered your question either. I feel this supplements and increases your question. – Gershon Gold Jul 31 '14 at 15:40
  • they can be extremely hospitable, which I assume comes from Abraham. – ray Jul 31 '14 at 18:16
  • @ray - Yes, that's true, and I never related that to Avraham, until you mentioned this. OTOH, they can also be extremely wild & ruthless like Yishma'el. – DanF Jul 31 '14 at 20:11
  • the torah predicts his descendants will be pereh adam. Rav Hirsh notes it doesn't say adam pereh, i.e. the main thing is pereh which looks like adam, not the other way around – ray Aug 01 '14 at 05:10
  • @ray - Sorry, I'm not quite understanding your point. – DanF Aug 01 '14 at 13:04
  • i.e. not a adam who is a wild donkey, but a wild donkey in the tzura of adam – ray Aug 02 '14 at 18:50
  • In terms of genetic testing we share many markers with them, which shows at the very least a common ancestry that originates in the middle east. Would you be interested in hearing more? – Aaron May 28 '15 at 20:22
  • Data point: Rashi in בראשית פרק-יח says כסבור שהם ערביים, שמשתחוים לאבק רגליהם - long before Yishmael had descendants. – Danny Schoemann Jan 05 '16 at 12:46
  • Who do you call "current-day Arabs"? I don't think it's one ethnical group, like trhe Americans, hence ערבים = מעורבבים. – Al Berko Oct 07 '19 at 13:05
  • What would constitute evidence for this, exactly? – Harel13 Aug 03 '21 at 15:48

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The Rashi referenced in my answer there says in part:

אלו ערביים השוכנים באהלים במדברות ורועים מקנה כל ימיהם

These are the arabs that dwell in tents in the desert and pasture flocks all their lives.

So Rashi explicitly conflates the two.

Then again, arabs in Rashi's terminology might more mean desert dwellers rather than the modern definition of Arabs meaning a common cultural connection among a heterogeneous group of people that we think of today. Or perhaps Rashi means Arabians (people specifically from the Arabian peninsula).

So in modern terminology, Yishmoel's descendants may be Arabs today, but not all Arabs are descendants of Yishmoel - and given the degree that Islam in the area has pushed converts (by force or financial pressure), I would be surprised if they claimed real literal genetic decent from Yishmoel, rather than some sort of spiritual heritage.

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Yishai
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    "(by force or financial pressure)" Why is that at all relevant? What about the converts they got from being convincing? – Double AA Jul 31 '14 at 18:06
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    @DoubleAA, I'm not aware of a historical precedent of mass conversion caused by convincing. Perhaps convincing a monarch, who in turn applied the pressure, but I wouldn't call that "convincing" either. Large scale assimilation of other cultures requires pressure, AFAIK. The relevance is that when the Islamic Arabs themselves say they are from Yishmoel, I wonder if they mean genetically and all of them. – Yishai Jul 31 '14 at 18:18
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    The parenthetical doesn't seem to support what you claim is relevant. Just say "given the degree that Islam in the area has received converts, I would be surprised..." – Double AA Jul 31 '14 at 18:21
  • @DoubleAA, large scale conversion would dilute a claim that the general population is genetically near-homogeneous. – Yishai Jul 31 '14 at 18:22
  • I agree. Why are you telling me this? – Double AA Jul 31 '14 at 18:40
  • @DoubleAA, I was responding to an earlier version of your comment. But the point is that the large scale is something that their religion claims, and since the question brings up their claim, contextualizing why they would think it large scale and sudden seems to be relevant. – Yishai Jul 31 '14 at 18:44
  • @DoubleAA, if it really bothers you, go ahead and change it, and remove these comments. – Yishai Jul 31 '14 at 18:50
  • Doesn't Rashi also say that the 3 angels who visit Avraham "Looked like Arviim"? Since Yishmael was only 13 at the time, Rashi obviously includes the possibility of non-yishmael arabs. – Nic Dec 29 '14 at 17:31
  • @Yishai There may have been a mass conversion to Judaism done by convincing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Judaism – Aaron Nov 19 '15 at 01:03
  • This Rashi on Chumash is also connecting the two: https://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Genesis.21.17.2?lang=he . At least according to this Bartenura: https://www.sefaria.org/Bartenura_on_Torah%2C_Genesis.18.4.2?lang=he . The question is: anybody before Rashi has made same identification? – Binyomin Oct 23 '23 at 04:35
  • Based on this, Rashi is earliest mention for this idea? Here this article argues that Josephus already made this connection: https://www.meforum.org/57936/ishmael-father-arabs – Binyomin Oct 23 '23 at 04:47
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I remember learning in school a Ramban which comments on the episode with Hagar being kicked out; if you want I can look for it and find the exact wording. Anyways, he writes basically that because Sarah kicked her out, this caused that the Arabs will continue to hate and attack us relentlessly until the times of Mashiach.

Also, there are sefarim kedoshim that mention that the very last part of Galut Edom will be Galut Yishmael, in which the Arabs will take over much of the world and try to wipe out the Jews. Interesting how the Arabs are already taking over Europe and we've had fierce wars with them for the past few decades

Ariel Baradarian
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    Hello Ariel Baradarian and welcome to mi.yodeya! Your answer would be greatly improved by citing and quoting your sources, which could make it subject to the analysis/disclaimer in Yishai's answer. – WAF Dec 29 '14 at 02:13
  • I guess this Ramban was referred: https://www.sefaria.org/Ramban_on_Genesis.16.6?vhe=On_Your_Way&lang=bi – Binyomin Oct 23 '23 at 04:43