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A Jew who lives in the U.S. own a pizza store. He wants to be sure that he has plenty of fresh pizzas ready to sell as soon as Pesach is over. So, before Pesach, he sells his chametz to his Israeli brother. The Israeli brother sells his chametz, including the batch brought from his U.S. brother, via his rav in Israel. Now the Israeli brother flies to the U.S. for Pesach. Since the Israeli does not celebrate the 8th day of Pesach, and the chametz has been bought back by the Israeli rav, the Israeli goes to the pizza store and bakes pizzas on our 8th of Pesach. Is there any problem with this procedure? Can one buy the pizza after Pesach?

BTW - the gates to the pizza store are down so there is no problem of mares ayin if someone from the neighborhood passed by the store on the 8th day of Pesach and saw it open. There MAY be some questions when people come in after Pesach and wonder how so many pizzas were baked so quickly after the end of Yom Tov.

We can also assume that even if there is a requirment for the Israeli to "observe" the 8th day of Yom Tov, the fire was lit from a pre-existing flame, so there is no melacha involved. We can further assume that he was not preparing for after Yom Tov since the Israeli ate some of the pizza, himself.

Please focus your answers on the issue of the chametz problem only; not the melacha problem, as there is none involved. Food preparation is permitted on Yom Tov.

Dan
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  • It's questionable that the brother wouldn't have to observe the eighth day in this situation. – Tatpurusha Apr 08 '14 at 16:24
  • @Tatpurusha The OP is clearly working under the assumption that the brothers' rabbi(s) holds that he wouldn't have to. – Double AA Apr 08 '14 at 16:58
  • As I understand it, if it's not Yom Tov for the Israeli, then the question of melacha wouldn't apply, anyway. But, in either case, for purposes of the discussion, we can assume that the source of the oven fire came from a pre-existing flame. The rest is food preparation which is permitted on Yom Tov, anyway. – Dan Apr 09 '14 at 14:46
  • @Dan Is your understanding based in anything, because it flies in the face of traditional Jewish sources? Anyway, you will be much better off without the Israeli eating any pizza. – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 15:31
  • @Dan note one of the answers points out that he is forbiddent to eat any chametz on the eighth day. Thus, one of the assumptions that you added is forbidden from the beginning. – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 17:36
  • ...according to that source. There could possibly be other ways of obviating Hachana though. – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 17:47
  • Making food on Yom Tov is only allowed if you can eat the food. Making food for a goy , for example, is not allowed. Similarly, making food that is asur to eat would also be forbidden. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 13:52
  • @sabbahillel Can you source that cooking Treif violates Bishul? Cooking for a non-Jew is a gemara (Megilah 7b). Furthermore, can you explain how this concern would be relevant where the issue is Maras Ayin not Melacha per se. No one can tell why you are cooking. – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 14:51
  • @DoubleAA The way that I would learn that gemara (and the rishonim) is that one is definitely allowed to invite the maid or witer to eat because on would not cook special for them. The only heter for cooking on Yom Tov is that one is cooking for oneself. If one were making treif food (which of course is asur to eat) then one would not be allowed to cook it on Yom Tov (such as for a goy). Similarly, since an Israeli is not allowed to eat chametz on the eighth day Pesach, he would not be allowed to cook chametz on the eighth day pesach (for the same reason). Like the ladder in Beitzah 9. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 15:56
  • @sabbahillel But if he's cooking neveilah meat, how will anyone know? It looks like regular meat. What's the Maras Ayin? – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 19:50
  • @DoubleAA Are you asking about an Israeli in chutz la'aretz? The reason is that he appears to be doing something asur because he must act as if he is a ben chutz la'aretz as far as his actions go. Thus, he is forbidden to do whatever is forbidden to a ben chutz la'aretz. Since everyone els is forbidden to cook neveilah on the second day of Yom Tov, so is he. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 20:10
  • @sabbahillel That is AFAIK not true and underscores your repeated misconceptions about this rule. – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 20:17

3 Answers3

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Aruch Hashulchan 496:5 says that it is forbidden for a Ben Eretz Yisrael to eat Chometz in Chutz L'Aretz on Acharon Shel Pesach.

ויש מי שאומר דבן ארץ ישראל הבא לחוץ לארץ – אסור לו לאכול חמץ באחרון של פסח בכל עניין, אפילו דעתו לחזור. ונכון הוא, דזה גריע ממלאכה.‏

Double AA
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Gershon Gold
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  • Actually it says the brother can't eat the pizza. It doesn't say he can't own it. Furthermore it would be nice if you could address the possibility that Amira leNochri could be used by the brother to get workers to come bake the pizza. There's no maras ayin there, likely. – Double AA Apr 08 '14 at 17:41
  • @DoubleAA: There is no Maris Ayin with a non Jew working in a Kosher Pizza shop on Pesach? Whom are you kidding? – Gershon Gold Apr 08 '14 at 17:45
  • I'm not kidding anyone. Everyone assumes a non-Jew owns the place, right? – Double AA Apr 08 '14 at 17:46
  • @DoubleAA, re Maaris Eiyin, what they assume is that the Jew went in and took it back over too early. Everyone "knows" that the non-Jew isn't likely to go in there and start using the place. This has actually happened. – Yishai Apr 09 '14 at 15:09
  • @Yishai Is there any indication that such a concern would be prohibitive? – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 15:19
  • Can he own the Chametz? – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 23:33
  • I still don't see how this answers the question, per my last comment. – Double AA Apr 06 '15 at 19:45
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You could try to construe something odd and theoretical in which the question would come up [e.g. you have a commercial bakery in the middle of nowhere], but practically in the case you describe -- you could build a 20-foot brick wall surrounding your pizza store, but it's in a Jewish neighborhood (as kosher restaurants are), so there will be the smells, sounds, and indications of people going in and out. There's really no way to do this that will be completely unnoticeable to the Pesach-observing Jews nearby.

Shalom
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  • They think it's owned by a non-Jew and there is no Melacha involved because you can cook on Yom Tov. What is the problem? Plus as long as the store is a few miles away from the community (a case which is not "odd" but practical in many communities) then you can assume Jews won't be walking by (this is a famous Chumra of Chol HaMoed over Yom Tov) – Double AA Apr 08 '14 at 19:08
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The question has been edited to specify that this refers only to the Chametz problem alone. As a result, I have deleted most of my answer. I checked with my LOR (who is a rav at Ner Israel in Baltimore) and he said that the accepted general halacha is that an Israeli in chutz la'aretz for Pesach is not allowed to buy back chametz until after all eight days of Pesach.

An Israeli who is chutz la'aretz on the Eighth day of Pesach is no more allowed to own chametz (and is subject to B'al yiraeh bal yimatzeh) than he is allowed to eat it. The question as asked has the Israeli in the (Jewish owned) pizza parlor and owning the chametz (and working with it) which as far as I am concerned causes him to violate bal yiraeh bal yimatzei. It is like the reason one must lock away chametz sold to the goy and rent him the space. Note that if the Israeli's brother owns the store, he (the brother) is in violation even if he does not own the chametz itself. The next set of posting goes into why I think this.

The Tefilot of An Israeli On The Second Day Of Yom Tov When Visiting Outside of Israel seems to imply that he would not be able to buy back chametz on the eighth day. Since this is mekach umemkar (if the Israeli brother is buying back the chametz), the action is forbidden in chutz la'aretz on that day. Additionally, he is not allowed to own chametz on that day just as a ben chutz la'aretz is not allowed to own chametz on that day. Thus, even if the rabbi in Israel buys it for him, ain shliach lidvar avaeirah. Note that I said earlier that the Israeli rabbi would not have bought the chametz for him and the Israeli brother would have had to tell him that he had chometz in chutz la'aretz. If he did not tell the rabbi that he would not be in Israel for Pesach, I do not know if the purchase would be valid. Even if someone holds that the Israeli does not have to keep the second day Yom Tov, he would be forbidden to do anything that is asur to the community in chutz la'aretz because of mar'is ayin even in private. Note that even speaking about the davening, he cannot wear tefilin where anyone can see him (kal vachomer buy back chametz or own chametz, or have chametz in his property). That is if he is not allowed to perform something that is a mitzvah for him in public, kal vachomer that he is forbidden to do something that is completely asur to the community and that he is not required to do.

The Gemara in Masechet Pesachim (52) records that Rav Safra, who lived in Eretz Yisrael and observed just one day, spent Yom Tov one year in a community that observed two days of Yom Tov. Out of respect for the community, which observed a second day of Yom Tov, Rav Safra, too, refrained from Melacha (forbidden activity) on this day, even though for him, as a resident of Eretz Yisrael, this was not Yom Tov.

Accordingly, the Shulchan Aruch writes (Orach Chayim 496:3; listen to audio for precise citation) that a resident of Eretz Yisrael who comes to a community in Chutz La'aretz (the Diaspora) for Yom Tov must abstain from Melacha on the second day of Yom Tov. The Shulchan Aruch emphasizes that this applies even if the individual comes only for a temporary visit and plans to return to Eretz Yisrael.

It should be noted, however, that since for this person the second day is not actually a Yom Tov, he would recite the weekday prayers, rather than the Yom Tov prayers. Likewise, he should wear Tefillin on this day, as he does on weekdays, though only in private, and not in the view of those celebrating a second day of Yom Tov. (Mishna Berura, 496:3, Seif Kattan 13)

Of course, this applies only if the individual comes to the Diaspora for just a temporary visit. If he comes with the intent of residing there permanently, then he is considered a full-fledged resident of the Diaspora, and he observes a second day of Yom Tov with the special Tefilot and without wearing Tefillin.

Summary: An Israeli resident who visits a community in the Diaspora during Yom Tov must abstain from forbidden activity on the second day of Yom Tov, but he recites weekday prayers and wears Tefillin.

Additionally, the daf yomi in Beitzah 9A points out that when something is forbidden because of Mar'is Ayin, it is forbidden even in a private area. This is especially true for a Torah violation. Tosafos to Kesubos 60a, Magen Avraham 301:56, Mishnah Berurah 301:56with Beur Halacha.

sabbahillel
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  • Is it prohibited for him to own Chametz on 22 Nissan? Why do you care how he got the Chametz? Let's say he left the Techum of the city, bought oodles of noodles and pizza dough and cheerios and cookies, plowed a field, lit a fire and wove a shirt, and then came back. Now he has Chametz. Must he destroy it no matter what? – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 17:28
  • @DoubleAA I would be inclined to think that it is just as asur as it is to buy back the chametz that was sold to a goy or to eat chametz (as shown in one of the other answers). – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 17:31
  • I don't see why you are inclined to think that. Why would there be Maras Ayin on ownership? – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 17:46
  • @DoubleAA Because he is buying chametz when it is asur to do so. It appears that he is violating bal yeraeh bal yimatzei (this is the entire idea of mar'is ayin). Consider Beitzah about moving the ladder in the dovecote. – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 17:55
  • ????? He is permitted to buy Chametz outside the Techum. I'm talking about OWNING not BUYING. Why do you keep confusing the two? How does it appear he is violating BYBY? Ownership is not something that can possibly be apparent. – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 18:04
  • The discussin is going astray. Stick to the basic premise in the question. The pizza dough has been in the store all week. The pizza dough was sold to the Israeli; sold to the rabbi and the rabbi bought it back from the goy after Pesach, so now the Israeli owns it, and it i sno longer Pesach for him. I don't think the rabbi in Israel keeps track (and he may not be required to) of which Israelis are going to Chutz La'aretz for Pesach. I think that would complicate the sale and buy back process. – Dan Apr 09 '14 at 18:27
  • @Dan I've been trying to get him to discuss an Israeli who owns chametz in the diaspora on 22 nissan and he keeps dodging the questions – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 18:41
  • @Dan I explicitly said that an Israeli who is chutz la'aretz on the Eighth day of Pesach is no more allowed to own it (and is subject to B'al yiraeh bal yimatzeh) than he is allowed to eat it. The question as asked has the Israeli in the (Jewish owned) pizza parlor and owning the chametz (and working with it) which as far as I am concerne causes him to violate bal yiraeh bal yimatzei. It is like the reason one must lock away chametz sold to the goy and rent him the space. Note that if the Israeli's brother owns the store, he is in violation even if he does not own the chametz itself. – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 21:09
  • @Dan yes keeping track does complicate the process but no more than someone owning Chametz in London, New york, and Los Angeles. The rabbi needs to be told so that he can make the proper arrangements. It is up to the owner to tell the Rabbi. – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 21:14
  • The remainder of your post does not support your contention that BYBY applies. It's an unconvincing attempt at discussing buying Chametz, not owning it. – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 21:23
  • Can you elaborate on why you think your kal vahomer is logical? What is kal and what is chamur? Isn't the mekach umemkar happening in Israel though? – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 23:10
  • @DoubleAA I point out that the rav in Eretz Yisrael would not buy back the chometz for the Israeli brother 'early' if he knew that the brother was not in Eretz Yisrael. I need to daven maariv and go to bed now. cleaning for Pesach is exhausting (:-) – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 23:52
  • How do you know what he would do? – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 23:52
  • @DoubleAA Based on what my LOR said is the generally accepted procedure and the logic of the discussion. If there is a rav who buys back chametz for a ben eretz yisrael while both the chametz and the person are in chutz la'aretz, show where that psak can be found. The psak would have to include the logic implied in the original question. – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 23:55
  • Thats not how it works. Until you claim that your opinion is the only one, the onus is on you to prove it is. – Double AA Apr 09 '14 at 23:57
  • @DoubleAA I claim that this is the general procedure. If I am wrong, show me who says differently. I cannot take the time to 'prove a negative' – sabbahillel Apr 09 '14 at 23:58
  • @DoubleAA I said that my rav informed me that this is the general procedure that everyone does. I also gave reasoning as to why this would be the case. I have to shut down now. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 00:07
  • Why must one lock away Chametz sold to a goy and rent him the space? That has nothing to do with BYBY. "general halacha" and "everyone does" are different. Are you then claiming this is the only opinion? – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 00:33
  • FTR your reasoning is poor. Maras Ayin applies to Melacha not to owning things as you can't see ownership. You don't address this issue at all, but rather talk about tzina being absolute yet don't note any of the exceptions to the prohibition such as Igros Moshe OC 4:105 and Shevet HaLevi 7:65. You state that he can wear Tefilin in private yet you won't let a rabbi in Israel buy Chametz??? What of the fact that he is only bound while in the physical confines of the town? Why should the actions done outside the community matter? Note that Hachana (and 8th day generally) are only Derabanan. – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 00:43
  • @DoubleAA note that the question is about a pizza store in the community thus talking about 'outside the community' is not appropriate. Similarly, the point that I made about the rabbi in Israel is that my LOR said that the normal methodology is that he (the Israeli rabbi) would not buy it back (as a shaliach for the owner) until the time that it is appropriate to buy it back in the community in which the chametz is located and based on where the owner actually is at the time. Given the question as asked the store cannot be used to make pizza on the eighth day. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 09:02
  • I know what the question said and you aren't reading my comments. I said the sale is happening in Israel (outside the community) so your supporting logic is poor. That's what I said and I stand by it. Perhaps your rabbi is right about the more common practice, but your supporting logic is very poor. – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 12:55
  • @DoubleAA OK the way I look at it is that since the chametz is in the same place as the Israeli (in chutz la'aretz) it is not the same case as anIsraeli (in Israel) owning chametz in chutz la'aretz. Actually, my next door neighbor lives in Eretz Yisrael during the chagim and is therefore keeping seven days of Pesach. When he comes in for the summer (after Shavuos) I will try to ask him what the actual practice with the chametz in his house here is. The question as I see it, is the Israeli allowed to go into the store and start making pizza? I see enough problems with that to make it asur. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 13:48
  • @sabbahillel It would be nice if you would delineate precisely the problems you see. If there is no issue of owning it (as evidenced by my thought experiment of one who buy Chametz outside the Techum and then comes into the Techum: must he do Biur?? You can't see ownership), then what is the issue. Standing next to it? Touching it? – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 13:50
  • @DoubleAA For example, just as cooking for a goy is not allowed, cooking food that is asur to eat would be asur. Bal Yiraeh bal yimatzeh is such that one cannot have chametz in ones reshus during Pesach. I would contend that this is similar to the reason that one must rent the area in which the sold chometz is stored to the goy and must have a valid mechitzah around the chometz. Thus, going in to the store and taking out the chometz would not be allowed. A practical matter of the mashgiach and the hechsher organization would also be involved. The mashgiach must control even OU marked items – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 14:00
  • @sabbahillel So you can't walk around a grocery with Chametz items on the shelves??? This is preposterous. There is no issur of standing next to Chametz or of a having a goy stand on your property with a cracker in his pocket. Your question about cooking without eating is possibly the first interesting thing you've said so far, but I'd lump it with Hachana in that no one can tell who/when you are cooking for, so it's better than Tzina (like Igros Moshe above). (Your oft repeated hashgacha points are a waste of space as usual. Everyone agrees you have to work with your mashgiach if you have on) – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 14:02
  • @DoubleAA I was just mentioning some of the prcatical points. There is a big difference in having chametz in your own store and going into a goy's store or a goy walking in with a cracker in the pocket. The mashgiach point was just a mention a a practical problem and was not part of the question. As far as cooking, it is not a matter of cooking without eating, but cooking when it is asur to eat. There is a difference. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 14:42
  • What is the difference? (to both of your claimed 'differences') – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 14:42
  • @DoubleAA The difference is that it is asur to have food openly for sale in your own store because of BYBY It has nothing to do with what the goy does in his own store. – sabbahillel Apr 10 '14 at 15:59
  • How is having food for sale a prohibition? I thought the prohibition wws owning it – Double AA Apr 10 '14 at 16:24