It is well known that Rabbi Avigdor Miller Zatzal strongly condemned those that voted for candidates that would not uphold Torah values. Yet there were many Gedolim that had no problem voting for such candidates or endorsing them if they felt there were other benefits for the Tzibur. Coming up on this years midterm elections, Is there any Issur according to Halacha to vote for any candidates, or is it all dependent on what is overall best for us?
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HodofHod
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Gershon Gold
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- Or is it dependent on what's overall best for the United States, in the estimation of the voter, 4) Or is it dependent on what's best for the voter him/herself?
– Isaac Moses Oct 12 '10 at 01:11 -
2Why would this year's midterms be any different from whatever elections R' Miller and other gedolim apparently disagreed about? – Isaac Moses Oct 12 '10 at 01:12
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9NB: Beware simplistic analyses of who is or isn't in support of "Torah values." Don't forget that the Torah has values for all aspects of our lives, and that the Torah's position is frequently too nuanced to fit onto a bumper sticker. I submit that every candidate's policies uphold some Torah values and violate others, so if you're trying to vote pro-Torah, you have to do a careful analysis of all of the possible realms of disagreement. – Isaac Moses Oct 12 '10 at 01:16
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1The premise of your question would be strengthened if you'd cite publications that express R' Miller's and other gedolim's positions. – Isaac Moses Oct 12 '10 at 01:17
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I will reword to clarify. It is really a question for all times, being asked at this point of midterm elections. You are correct to note that although a candidate may be upholding some Torah values often he will violate others. – Gershon Gold Oct 12 '10 at 01:58
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This recent Hirhurim post contains a link to this journal article exactly on this question, which apparently makes a similar point to the one I did above. Beli neder, I hope to read this article when I have time and write an answer based on it. – Isaac Moses Mar 26 '12 at 17:13
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Almost everyone upholds some Torah values at the expense of others. For example, someone may support giving Tzedakah (a good thing) and supporting workers (in general a good thing at times) at the expense of support of positions that Torah doesn't hold of. Remember that some people who support Israel may, at times, not be ethical in office (or may turn around and go against Israel!).
Moreover, all politicians are known to lie, and what the politician will REALLY do is not known to anybody outside of very close staff.
Therefore it takes a big Rov to decide which politician is actually more in line with Torah than others.
P.S. I don't mean to bash any politicians particularly, but the Mishna does say to stay far from government!
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3Besides outright lying, what a candidate says and what an elected official does are often very different merely because the former tends to lack a great deal of information about the real conditions experienced by the latter, and certainly about how those conditions may change in the future. If you're turning to a Rov to prognosticate about which candidate would actually do what if elected, it'd be best if he's both an expert in politics and policy AND a navi! – Isaac Moses Sep 14 '11 at 16:00
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2@IsaacMoses, I've also heard that a reason presidents don't do as they'd said they would is that lev m'lachim b'yad Hashem, God influences their decisions once they are in office. – msh210 Jan 29 '12 at 07:47
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"Therefore it takes a big Rov to decide which politician is actually more in line with Torah than others." How does this follow??? – Double AA Nov 06 '16 at 18:20
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Yes, Pirkei Avot does say to distance oneself from the government. But, I think that means being a politician or working in close contact with a government official. It doesn't apply to voting, which is extremely important. I wonder if there may even be a halacha that requires people to vote. – DanF Aug 30 '17 at 20:54
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There is an article on this topic by Rabbi Mark Dratch in which he argues that voting for e.g., a pro-abortion candidate is not a violation of "lifnei iver" because it is indirect--one is only voting for a legislator who will then vote to violate the Noahide laws. (This of course would not help for the legislator himself.) However, he concedes that there may be a prohibition of "strengthening the hands of transgressors"--מחזיקין ידי עוברי עבירה--in supporting such a candidate. (Rabbi Dratch attempts to neutralize this problem, but his reasoning is flawed.) Last, it is not true that halakhah has a specific policy proscription for everything--halakhah does not mandate what percentage of the GDP the government should spend. Certain areas, i.e., "hot-button social issues," are clearly mandated. I don't think that if a candidate is for gay marriage and abortion, the fact that e.g., he is for more headstart funding has any halakhic weight.
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1He compares voting for a candidate to selling wood to an idolator--since the wood can be used for permissible purposes, we do not assume that he will use the wood for idolatry--he quotes Nedarim 62b and the Ran there. So too, Dratch argues, voting for a candidate who has many positions, some of which are not against halakhah, is like selling wood. The flaw is that there we assume the wood will be used for just one purpose--if we know that some of the wood will be used for idolatry, there would be no heter. The politician will certainly vote for many different things--not comparable – wfb May 08 '12 at 03:51
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2@wfb, we don't know a political position will be used to aid abortion: the subject may never come up in the legislature. – msh210 May 08 '12 at 04:19
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1Also, even if it did, so long as the vote margin is greater than 1 you may not have directly influenced the decision. – Double AA May 08 '12 at 05:47
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Some other Torah values that are worthy of consideration for their "Halachic weight": 1) Avoda Zara - Would the candidate's election be likely to increase or decrease the practice of Avoda Zara? 2) Murder - What affect would the candidate's election have on the prevalence of murder, perhaps including as perpetrated (according to Halacha) by foreign or domestic governments? 3) Theft - What affect would the candidate's election have on the prevalence of theft? 4) Courts - What affect would the candidate's election have on the fairness of relevant judicial systems? – Isaac Moses Nov 04 '14 at 16:26
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1@IsaacMoses 1) In a country with separation of church and state, it is hard to imagine that a candidate would be promoting avoda zara. 2) Abortion is the one form of murder that is promoted by a major U.S. political party. War, or the death penalty, on the other hand, do not constitute murder in halacha. 3) Theft: this does not seem to be something advocated by any political party. 4) I agree that this is something worth considering, though again, it doesn't seem to be on the agenda of any party. – wfb Nov 16 '14 at 00:18
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- Despite the official separation of church and state in the US, there are plenty of politicians at various levels who try and sometimes succeed at using government to promote Avoda Zara. 2) Abortion is not murder according to halacha, though it is forbidden in most situations. (Note, though, that the #1 most effective way to prevent abortions is opposed by many politicians who are often thought of as in favor of "religious values.") War and the death penalty are only permitted, and therefore not murder, when justified halachically, which is certainly a matter of debate. ...
– Isaac Moses Nov 16 '14 at 01:52 -
1... In addition, government at all levels has a very important role in reducing or increasing the number of murders committed by criminals at home and abroad. 3) Same as murder. Government has a role in preventing theft, large and small. In addition, many politicians are personally guilty of theft. 4) The rule of law is a very big deal, and a matter of many debates and extremely dependent on the competence of elected and appointed officials. In conclusion: The Torah has a lot more to say about things that government does than people usually think of when they say "religious values." – Isaac Moses Nov 16 '14 at 01:58
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1@isaacmoses "Abortion is not murder according to halacha" - for bnei noach, it certainly is. – wfb Nov 16 '14 at 19:32
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A person will need to weight the different issues. If a candidate is against a Jewish value in one area, but strong in an other area, then the voter will need to evaluate who's best overall. However, in many elections, one candidate or party is against far more Jewish values than the other side, so its quite easy to tell who a Jew should vote for.
Ariel K
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2Reiterating my comments on the question, let me point out that many times when it seems obvious which candidate is for the most "Jewish values," that analysis is based on a very circumscribed list of hot-button issues but ignores many other important values. In addition, it's important to differentiate between issues upon which a candidate is likely to make a practical difference if elected and those less likely to see any real change as a result of the election. Often enough, what seems like an obvious call to very many people becomes less obvious when analyzed thus. – Isaac Moses Sep 14 '11 at 15:55
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I heard in the name of the Moetzet HaGedola that it would be Asur to vote for someone who does not uphold Torah values.
Hacham Gabriel
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Do you mean the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah (of Agudath Israel of America), the Moetzet Gedolei Hatorah (of Agudat Yisrael), the Moetzet Gedolei Hatorah (of Degel Hatorah), or something else? – msh210 Jan 29 '12 at 05:56
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1-1 Sometimes the only two candidates with a real chance of winning are both non-Torah values candidates. However, one could be bad, and the other could be far worse. Given that choice, we still need to vote for the lesser of two evils, lest we end up with the greater of two evils! – Jan 29 '12 at 09:04
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1@HachamGabriel no, it's not. You quoted from some "moetzet" that it is assur to vote for someone who does not uphold Torah values. In the scenario I gave above, you are saying it would be assur to vote for either of them. – Jan 29 '12 at 15:25
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2@Will, I'd go further and suggest that by the wording of the standard presented here, it would be forbidden to support any candidate in diaspora elections, ever. Every single one of them doesn't uphold some Torah values. In addition, I'd caution, as I have elsewhere in the thread, that choosing the "lesser of two evils" from the point of view of Torah values is much more complicated than most people assume. – Isaac Moses Jan 29 '12 at 15:42
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1@IsaacMoses I agree with your reisha. Your seifa, however, threatens to neuter any influence that the Jewish community has in any given country. That is very dangerous indeed. – Jan 29 '12 at 15:51
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@Will Chasing, as a community, after candidates who seem according to superficial analysis to "uphold Torah values" is no less dangerous, and, in fact, also potentially neuters the community by making it a guaranteed vote for one side (as we see, for example, with certain political parties having guaranteed seats in districts that are predominantly populated with one ethnic group). Let the Jewish community let itself be heard regarding the issues themselves (e.g). – Isaac Moses Jan 29 '12 at 18:31
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@IsaacMoses I agree; no one should lie about any candidate and his/her commitment to "Torah values", nor should we praise any candidate based on a superficial analysis. Yet, come election day, there's almost always the lesser (or least) of bad choices - and the worse choices are SO MUCH worse, that we need to be able to vote for the lesser / least of the bad choices. – Jan 29 '12 at 19:42
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@HachamGabriel so then edit or delete your answer. You've just changed your answer from "assur to vote for someone who doesn't support Torah values" to "ask a Rov" (who to vote for)". – Jan 31 '12 at 06:45
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@Will I meant you must ask a rov in a case where the are 2 bad candidates and one is worse. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 31 '12 at 14:23
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2@HachamGabriel That's every case. Have you seen any tzaddikim running for political office lately? – Jan 31 '12 at 15:30
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