4

To the best of my knowledge there is no indication in Megillas Esther or in the Talmud that Mordechai conferred with any of the sages at any point during the events leading up to the undoing of Haman.

I would like to know if there is any indication by any commentator that Mordechai did in fact seek counsel, and if not, to know why he was making decisions which would affect the entire Jewish people without consulting with the Sanhedrin, a prophet, or anyone else.

WAF
  • 23,730
  • 4
  • 46
  • 138
please remove my account
  • 3,863
  • 15
  • 36
  • 3
    not mentioned ≠ didn't happen – Yirmeyahu Dec 23 '13 at 20:20
  • 4
    @Yirmeyahu depends if it is reasonable to assume it should be mentioned. It doesn't mention that Mordechai washed negel vasser either. But for mega decisions I think it is reasonable to ask why there is no mention, even in chazal that anyone other than Mordechai (and Esther) were involved. – please remove my account Dec 23 '13 at 20:24

3 Answers3

2

According to the Targum Sheni (4:10) Mordechai did in fact send word and request prayers from Haggai, Zecharya, and Malachi regarding the situation.

rikitikitembo
  • 14,079
  • 3
  • 22
  • 80
1

He was the only Jewish leader still in Bavel at that time, since the Temple in Jerusalem had already been rebuilt. So to really answer your question, he was not making decisions that affected the entire Jewish people. Just most of them, since only a minority went back to Israel when the temple was rebuilt.

http://koltorah.org/ravj/15-24_Why_is_Megillat_Ester_Written_in_Such_a_Secular_Style.htm http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/757407/Rabbi_Ezra_Frazer/When_Did_the_Purim_Story_Happen-_Chronology-_Aggadah-_and_a_Modern_Orthodox_Educational_Challenge_ http://www.ypt.co.il/eng/tora_show.asp?id=50382 http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol11/v11n022.shtml

See Rashi and Ibn Ezra on Ezra regarding the idenity of kings and timing of Ester. and the baal hamor on Rosh Hashana 3b regarding dating tanach in general.

avi
  • 18,985
  • 1
  • 52
  • 81
  • Moshe, that is a midrash. You can check every timeline book you want, you will see that Ester is after the temple was rebuilt. – avi Dec 24 '13 at 08:45
  • 1
    Moshe, this IS the teaching of chazal. The fact that you are reading midrashim out of context and ignoring Tanach is not my problem. See here:

    http://www.ypt.co.il/eng/tora_show.asp?id=50382

     – avi Dec 24 '13 at 08:49
  • Can you source that he was "the only Jewish leader still in Bavel", even assuming many went off to Israel? Maybe others stayed around too? – Double AA Dec 24 '13 at 15:34
  • 1
    @avi, your sources do not cite any sources - and they fly against our Mesora - as the other commentators have said. Can you provide us with classic (pre-internet) Jewish sources for your claims, please. We also see in Ezra 2 and Nehemia 6 that Mordechai went up to Eretz Yisrael... before they started building the Bet Hamikdash. – Danny Schoemann Dec 25 '13 at 08:46
  • @DoubleAA "Can you source that he was "the only Jewish leader still in Bavel", even assuming many went off to Israel? Maybe others stayed around too? "

    Nobody else is ever mentioned.

     – avi Dec 25 '13 at 09:24
  • 1
    @Danny Those pesukim are about a different person named Mordechai Bilshan. avi is not making this up. This is a very public and well known and well documented idea even if many Jews don't talk about it because they find it awkward just how absurdly strong the evidence for it is. – Double AA Dec 25 '13 at 13:41
  • 1
    @DoubleAA - I recall from Menachos 65a that they are one and the same person. Also from Megila 16b it seems [almost explicit] that they are one and the same. – Danny Schoemann Dec 26 '13 at 08:11
  • 1
    @DannySchoemann Again. Do not confuse Midrash with fact. When Chazal tell us that two people are the same people, (when clearly they are not), they do so to teach us a lesson about names and goals and personalities, rewards and punishments. Not to teach a historical reality. – avi Dec 26 '13 at 08:12
  • @DoubleAA - I am still without a classic [pre-internet] source for this - despite it being "well documented". – Danny Schoemann Dec 26 '13 at 08:13
  • @DannySchoemann refresh your page, I cited 3 places, and provided 4 - 5 links. However, you should ask a new question, because these comments have nothing to do with the question or answer at hand. – avi Dec 26 '13 at 08:15
  • @DannySchoemann Three out of the four links in this answer are not unknown people. Their credentials are listed and their familiarity with the relevant scholarship is evident from their words. These aren't anonymous blogs. If you really need a printed book in Hebrew by a Jewish publisher, I'm sure the introductions to Daat Mikra on Ezra and Esther do a nice presentation. You can also check out Mitchell First's work on the issue. – Double AA Dec 26 '13 at 08:20
  • Link #2 - YU Online - I don't have the facilities to listen to 45 minutes of audio right now. Link #1 - I don't know who Rabbi Chaim Jachter is but he did quote a primary source which I hope to look up. I.e. "This follows the approach of the Daat Mikra in understanding the Peshuto Shel Mikra of Ezra-Nechemiah, especially the order of Persian emperors that appear in the beginning of Ezra chapter four." – Danny Schoemann Dec 26 '13 at 08:37
  • 1
    @DannySchoemann The links are more than sufficient to convince you this idea exists. If you want to learn more about the technical arguments of each side you'll probably have to look deeper. Here's another link btw to throw in the mix http://seforim.blogspot.com/2013/02/identifying-achashverosh-and-esther-in.html – Double AA Dec 26 '13 at 08:37
  • Thanks @DoubleAA - that last link has a lot of info - including a conflicting view (championed by Lisa Leil summarized in http://lamrot-hakol.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/contra-mitchell-first-again.html). So now we're back at the missing-years Sugya - one that I have always wanted to get to the bottom of. Thanks to avi for bringing this up' I'm going to reverse my down votes if the system lets me. – Danny Schoemann Dec 26 '13 at 08:47
  • @DannySchoemann AFAIK there is no bottom to it. All the data is one way. Chazal are the other. Go figure. – Double AA Dec 26 '13 at 08:49
  • @DoubleAA - that's a great summary - and what I suspected. Worthy of a question here - once I figure out how to word it - "How can Chazal be reconciled with contradictory data?" or along those lines... – Danny Schoemann Dec 26 '13 at 12:50
  • @pleaseremovemyaccount Can you explain to me why you think that someone living in Persia needs to consult the sanhedrin in Israel for what should happen inside of Persia? It might allow me to better understand what you are asking. – avi Dec 26 '13 at 14:57
  • @avi are you suggesting that if a Jew were to make a decision which could possibly endanger the lives of tens or hundreds of thousands of other Jews that he need not seek counsel? If there are living prophets then Mordechai should have certainly consulted with them. If there are none, he should have convened some sort of court or collection of leaders, no? If those leaders were in Israel then at the very very least he could have sent word to them of, what was assumed to be an impending holocaust, asking for their help and suggestions, no? – please remove my account Dec 26 '13 at 15:29
  • @DannySchoemann You may wish to check out http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/25984/759 http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/17223/759 http://judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/comments/70601 http://judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/comments/25750 http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/15405/759 and most importantly http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/30509/759 and you're not going to find any good answers. Like I said, most Jews don't like talking about it because it's awkward. – Double AA Dec 26 '13 at 16:21
  • Followup question. – msh210 Dec 29 '13 at 00:59
  • @pleaseremovemyaccount Sending word takes time. Mordochai clearly wanted to act immediately if he didn't wait to fast after Pesach. – Double AA Dec 30 '13 at 06:12
  • Another followup question. – msh210 Feb 12 '14 at 21:40
  • @ Double AA concerning that link to sforimblogspot. What part of the essay is so out of tune with Chazzal? Why is it impossible that the building of the temple took more than 35 years to complete? And thats assumimg all his dates are completely accurate. But why is it if we are dealing with such a small period of time, in a historical sense, that Herodotus is so willingly believed? Is there something else I missed? – user6591 Aug 25 '14 at 22:28
  • I gave an answer to this question on http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/34241/rishonim-saying-ester-took-place-during-the-second-bayis/53397#53397. There is not necessarily any machlokes between the different opinions in regard to the Purim story. The general debate over the timeline of these things and the missing years deserves a question of its own. – LN6595 Feb 02 '15 at 18:05
  • This doesn't answer the question. His decisions still effected everyone because the Jews of Israel were still under the Persian Empire. They would have been killed like everyone else. – conceptualinertia Nov 10 '22 at 16:01
1

It is clear from the Midrashim that Daniel and Baruch Ben Neria were around at the time. An explanation that I heard once was that only Mordechai understood that Hashem was acting with his הנהגה of being hidden as opposed to the others who saw His revealed open miracles. I hope this is a good starting point.

y.lub
  • 531
  • 3
  • 9