In dealing with issues relating to Tzeni'uth (modesty) and clothing, a lot depends on "local" standards of dress. For example, the RaMBa"M (here) explains that in places where women do not normally go out with just their hair covered, but with veils as well, they should be sure to wear veils as a matter of Halachah. However, since any deviation in the local standard would be a violation of this principle, it would stand to reason that we ought never to have changed our standard of dress from the time of Sinai. Since that is observably not the case, does this mean that, both in practice and in Halachah, we recognize societal standards in determining how we ought to dress in terms of modesty?
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1"However, since any deviation in the local standard would be a violation of this principle, it would stand to reason that we ought never to have changed our standard of dress from the time of Sinai" What do you mean by that? Why can't the local standard change? What prinicple is it in violation of? – Daniel May 29 '13 at 20:32
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@Daniel, it's intuitive. If you are violating the standard to do something different, you don't do something different; since nobody does something different, nothing changes. – Seth J May 29 '13 at 21:01
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1But not everybody are Jews. – Daniel May 29 '13 at 21:23
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@Daniel hence the question. If you ignore outside society then you're left with religious Jews who adhere to the unchanging standards of the community. Here's the core question: "...right?" – Seth J May 29 '13 at 22:10
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I don't know why you assume all Jews follow Halacha. – Double AA Jul 24 '14 at 19:46
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@double I don't. But I am basically asking, just because they don't, does that mean the Halachic norm changes to match society? Wouldn't there at least be an argument that whatever outside influences may exist, they shouldn't "count" in determining the "local" standard? – Seth J Jul 24 '14 at 22:35
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I don't have the source but I recently read that the leader of a Hasidic sect forbid his followers to wear plastic framed eyeglasses. They looked too "hipster" (as in Billyburg, Portland, etc.) like at this point in time. In the 1960's the same sect adapted the specific style of eyewear because it was different from what others were wearing at the time. Tzinus is conflicting at times. Whereas many rabbis want dress or style not to draw too much attention, Hasidic dress is often so different than that of the general population it does the exact opposite. The combination of modesty..... – JJLL Jul 25 '14 at 14:55
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......and not drawing attention seem to be at odds. If the way Jews dressed today was the same as at Sinai, we'd look pretty much like Muslims. If a rabbi didn't want his flock looking too "hipster" how would he have felt about looking too Muslim? Perhaps the answer is simply, as long as the essentials are covered, the outer clothing styles can change. Isn't there something kabalistic in that concept? The soul inside is what counts. The outside is only a skin covering up the true light inside. – JJLL Jul 25 '14 at 15:05
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@JJLL, I don't know why you assume we'd look Muslim. I agree, however, that we would not dress as we do today. – Seth J Jul 25 '14 at 20:24
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@JJLL What does that have to do with Kabbalah? – Double AA Jul 25 '14 at 21:00
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Not assuming SethJ, I know. The regional dress of the middle-east in Biblical times for men was similar for many Semitic tribes. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_clothing. I'll try to elaborate more with a reference from a major museum or school like FIT. Give me time. – JJLL Jul 27 '14 at 00:48
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Hey, DoubleAA. I am hardly the one to elaborate on Kaballah. From my limited studies through Chabad's Jewish Learning Institute's coursework, I was taught that there is a Cabalistic concept that Hashem's Glory is presented in all living and inanimate objects. It extends deeper than what scientists term atoms and nano cells. The glorious illumination of the Ein Sof is shrouded in clothing (the physical world) but is there even though we don't see it. The light of the sun, blazing hot and blinding, reaches earth heating and lighting it but there is nothing but pitch blackness in space between.. – JJLL Jul 27 '14 at 00:57
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...the sun and earth. That's why some people believe that the outside appearance of a person counts less than the hidden soul. If the inner goodness of a person extends to the outer world, than he or she is acting in the image of G-d. I am well aware that not all Jewish sects subscribe to this ideology. Perhaps you can help me understand why certain rabbi's obsess on outward physical appearances (like what eyeglass frames, black hats, etc. should be worn) instead of being concerned how a Jews's outward behavior is seen by others. – JJLL Jul 27 '14 at 01:05
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Hello SethJ. The following is a reference to Jewish dress that does not answer your question directly but you might nevertheless find interesting: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4699-costume. The link also illustrates how Jewish style of dress was indeed influenced by the surrounding culture. – JJLL Jul 27 '14 at 01:25
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Another interesting link http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Dress#id0ekzag – JJLL Jul 27 '14 at 02:06
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Here is a link that claims in medieval times Jews living in certain Muslim lands were indistinguishable from their Arab neighbors: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Ancient_and_Medieval_History/632-1650/Culture/Clothing.shtml – JJLL Jul 27 '14 at 02:27
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@JJLL, but shouldn't we strive to dress distinctively? My point above was just that, although we would not dress like we do today, that does not mean that we did not have a distinct form of dress way back when. In other words, just because we may have been living in the Middle East, that doesn't mean we dressed like Arabs. – Seth J Jul 28 '14 at 15:20
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Sorry SethJ, I failed in my mission. I could not find the supporting evidence to how Jews dressed at Sinai. As far as "shouldn't we strive to dress distinctively," well, in my opinion, we should not. Dressing modestly and respectively, absolutely. Dressing differently actually has the opposite affect than intended---it draws more attention to Jews than necessary. I work with an Orthodox Jew who unfortunately is a walking stereotype. He's often filthy, his clothes are old, torn, dirty and ill-fitting. His yarmulka is dirty, his tzizit are yellowed and beared unkept... – JJLL Jul 29 '14 at 01:57
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@jjll I didn't say we should disgust our neighbors or be caricatures of ourselves. But there's a point about being distinct that is not limited to streimlach. – Seth J Jul 29 '14 at 02:00
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....Man-o-Manoshevitz, SethJ, how I wish he didn't dress "differently." – JJLL Jul 29 '14 at 02:02
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@SethJ. I hear you and don't necessarily disagree. I also understand that there are multi-levels to the concept of how Jews should dress in addition to tsinus. Based on your original post, our style of dress has indeed changed (see my links above) based on environmental influences. Strong evidence suggests that some of the styles we consider Jewish today was actually based on non-Jewish styles of centuries ago. I suspect that the underlying concept of modestly, in a sexual paradigm, has not changed. Wearing a fur hat or a fedora costing a couple thousand dollars is hardly – JJLL Jul 29 '14 at 02:25
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...."modest" in another sense of the word for a people who are suppose to be humble. Anyway here is an article from a couple of years ago from the New York Times. It discusses how the standard Jewish fedora has become hipsterwear. What happens when the "others" adapt Jewish fashion styles? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/fashion/01noticed.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Aw&_r=0 – JJLL Jul 29 '14 at 02:28
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The Perisha (YD 182:5) gives two suggestions for how a place could change the associated gender of a particular clothing or action: either we follow the custom of the local non-Jews or a whole community of Jews could decide to change together.
Modesty norms, which are all about not attracting attention and hence based on the current facts on the ground, would seem to be no worse.
Double AA
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Rabbi Broyde has a yutorah mp3 regarding hair covering where he says it appears that the general standard of erva is probably subjectively tied to what's considered appropriate by modest non-Jewish women in general society.
Shalom
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Societal standards definitely affect how we ought to dress. Rabbi Yehudah Henkin quotes his grandfather, who said, “there is no prohibition against women wearing loose pants." If the purpose of tsnius is to act in a way that does not draw unnecessary attention to oneself, the way other people dress certainly makes a difference. What was necessary to achieve this level at one time is different from what is necessary now.
Daniel
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@Fred, I find it interesting that this is the English version. If Daniel has a source that this is the intended translation of the Hebrew, or that the Hebrew was translated from this, that would more than satisfy my question there. – Seth J May 29 '13 at 21:04
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@daniel teimoni women for loose pants underneath their long gowns while men wore "chassidishe" pant shorts underneath their jalabiyyas. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov May 29 '13 at 21:09
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@SethJ I didn't see the Hebrew version, only the English version. I'd agree with you that it doesn't necessarily mean that it is particularly modest. However, what is important is the first sentence that there is no prohibition. – Daniel May 29 '13 at 21:25
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Did you steal that sentence from http://thebeaconmag.com/2013/02/opinions/stop-judging-me-for-what-i-wear/ ?? – Double AA Jul 24 '14 at 19:17