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A standard Ashkenazi kesuba is a document no different to a post dated cheque; there is nothing religious or holy about it. It says that the man will pay his wife upon divorce or death the sum of 200 silver German marks (or zekukin). This amounts to 100 lbs in total or 230 grams per mark. This was instituted when the Jews lived in Germany most likely in the times of Tosfos, nearly one thousand years ago. See my comment that unlike RMF it is more likely the French mark which was 244 grams and more than the 100 lbs quoted by RMF.

At the time, everyone who got married in Germany would know exactly what was written there, like today everyone knows what dollars are. Later as the Jews moved eastwards it was considered too much and the women had to agree (reluctantly!) to forgo quite a large part of it, like in Russia where she only ended up with roubles to the value of forty dollars. This in no way means that the amount the man offered changed at all but only that she couldn't collect.

The Shulchan Oruch in CM writes regarding a shtar (document) that if the man does not know what is written there (and you believe him) he does not have to pay it. It gives the example of a Sefardi Kesuba which does not have a standard amount. The Chochmas Shlomo at the side says it depends if he himself signed it or not. A man can sign a paper and let someone else put any limitless amount he fancies, but not witnesses.

Today when not everyone reads this blog and very few people know what the 200 zekukim are, even rabbonim, much less the value of them being 100 lbs of silver, how can a kesuba be kosher? If it was a shtar it would not be unless it was signed, which not all kesubas are. Just because it is in a standard form should that make a difference? As I have proven, it was not always like this, since when it was instituted in Germany everyone knew what a German mark was.

My second question is: Rabbi Moshe Feinstein says the custom in Russia was to give the value of forty dollars. Since there doesn't seem to be any custom today, what right does an individual bais din have to decide for themselves, often based on the couple's worth, of how much the woman has to forgo?

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  • http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/3475/what-is-the-value-of-a-kesuba-marriage-contract – Gershon Gold Apr 26 '13 at 13:10
  • umm...Germany didn't exist 1000 years ago. Wikipedia claims that the German Mark didn't exist until the 17th Century. Something is fishy with your story. – Double AA Apr 28 '13 at 06:37
  • The German mark is mentioned in tosfos who lived before the 17th century. Will try to find link –  Apr 28 '13 at 07:21
  • http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9597&st=&pgnum=493 –  Apr 28 '13 at 07:35
  • or here it doesnt copy very well http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19128&st=&pgnum=55 בזקיק שקזרין מאר״ק –  Apr 28 '13 at 07:41
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_mark The Cologne Mark was a unit of weight equivalent to 233.856 grams. It was introduced by the Danish King Hans in the late 15th century and was used as a standard for weighing metals. It came to be used as the base unit for a number of currency standards, including the Lübeck monetary system, which was important in northern Europe in the late Middle Ages, –  Apr 28 '13 at 07:52
  • and the coinage systems of the Holy Roman Empire, most significantly the conventionsthaler, which was defined as one tenth of a Cologne Mark. The Mark was defined as half a Pfund (pound) with 16 Unze (ounces) to the Pfund. The Unze was subdivided into 2 Lot, 8 Quentchen, 32 Pfennig or 36 Gran, with the Gran equal to 0.812 grams –  Apr 28 '13 at 07:52
  • See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsm%C3%BCnzordnung –  Apr 28 '13 at 07:56
  • http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/151093/gallery/1961000/fulltext –  Apr 28 '13 at 08:10
  • ation closely with the amendment to the Monetary foot. For currencies, was employed early instead of the book marc which corresponded to the pound. A. Barthelemy said you can set between 1070 and 1090 the first use of the grounds. A document XIV century published successively by Ducange, Boi lizard and N. Wailly and Noster extract from the register of former House accounts Paris, tells us that at that time there was in France no less than four difierent marks: –  Apr 28 '13 at 08:12
  • "Or kingdom wont to have IV weight grounds, to wit the marc de Troyes ..... pomace Limoges ..... the grounds Tours ..... and grounds of La Rochelle. " The grounds Troyes became the grounds of the Royal Official France. It is divided into 8 oz, 64 large, 192 denier and 4608 grains, it corresponded to 244.75 grams. pomace Limoges was equivalent to 226.28 grams of our current system. Tours that corresponded to 223, 39 grams; finally that of the 'Rochelle, was also called marc England, 229.85 grams. Among the marks in use outside of royal France, the ` Mr. Blancard to 239.11 grams –  Apr 28 '13 at 08:14
  • So I was wrong it most likely was the French mark but then that corresponds to 244.75 gram. This is unlike RMF who says 100 lbs which corresponds to the German mark. –  Apr 28 '13 at 08:18
  • http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/midot/midot05.pdf –  Apr 28 '13 at 09:52

1 Answers1

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You're asking about six different questions.

The main thrust is answered here.

I think everyone involved needs to know that there will be a some bare minimum, as determined by a beis din, that he would have to pay upon death or divorce if she doesn't waive it; I don't think there's any need for further information on anyone's part. Rabbi Reiss has stated a (non-Get-related) prenup that says each side will walk away only with what was theirs to begin with should simply add "other than the minimum required ketubah payment, as determined by Beis Din ABC."

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Shalom
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  • Thanks. I wasnt aware that this question had already been asked. The link there though is unobtainable. –  Apr 26 '13 at 13:08
  • A kesuba has really nothing to do with the beis din. It is not for them to decide how much it is. The amount is written in the kesuba as 200 zekukim. which I have since been informed are 200 silver Deutsche Marks. RMF only says that 'minhag' can for some reason change 'amounts and figures'. But then there has to be some minhag, which he quotes in roubles. Each Bais din cant decide for themselves after the get. My question is if a person doesnt know the minhag like most people dont, can it still be kosher. –  Apr 26 '13 at 14:39
  • @Shulem, almost. A beis din can decide what is "absolutely required" (i.e. to apply the basic kesubah and not the tosefes kesubah). And if you're writing a legal prenup, it's much wiser to say "whatever beisdin XYZ calls 'minimum required payment' ", rather than say "the minimum halachically-required payment" and then the state courts are left trying to interpret that phrase. – Shalom Apr 26 '13 at 15:23
  • We have a requirement of no gravely-mistaken notions with regards to the kiddushin (mekach ta'us) -- i.e. if she's assuming the ring is made of gold it should be made of gold, and she's assuming he's not on the FBI Most Wanted List; then we also have a rabbinic requirement that the woman have the option of demanding 200 zuz upon the dissolution of the marriage. Why should anyone be required to go into the marriage with more detailed knowledge than that? – Shalom Apr 26 '13 at 15:26
  • That's all that's needed for the marriage to be kosher. Customary amounts -- including the zekukim -- are a monetary contract on how to split the property; today most Americans go into marriage with the assumption that it will be split according to equitable distribution (hakol keminhag hamedinah), which is what most batei din do practically today. Rabbis Broyde and Reiss argue that for American Ashkenazim with no other indication, it could be strongly argued that the default terms they agreed-upon are those of Rav Moshe Feinstein. – Shalom Apr 26 '13 at 15:30
  • It is not bais din who have decided that it must be 200 zekukin. Since it is in Marks mentioned twice in tosfos on the gemoro and once on the torah it must have been formulated in tosfos times. If someone were to write a kesuba with a different amount like the sefardi kesubas it is 100% kosher and so is the marriage. A kesuba is a contract like any other called a 'hischayvus', some chasidim like Belz specially dont write it in Hebrew letters since it has no 'holy' value at all only in script. At the time of tosfos it was decided to use 200 marks as the amount. –  Apr 26 '13 at 15:53
  • If someone write a sefardi kesuba where they have no fixed amount, the SA says he cant afterwards say he didnt know the amount since he definitely listened under the chupah as it was being read out. –  Apr 26 '13 at 15:55
  • This implies one should know the amount, and like today where 'anan sahada' he never listened under the chupah and if he did he had no idea what was being said he would not have to pay. –  Apr 26 '13 at 15:58