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There is a small group of people who believe that the Lubvatcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson zt"l is in fact God. For example, the front page of the website for a synagogue(?) in Mikwaukee reads, in part, "Yechi Eloheinu Moreinu V'Rabbeinu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam Va'ed!"

Is there an official Chabad/Lubavitch position on the status of those people? Does mainstream Chabad consider them to be true Hasidim? Perhaps they are even considered to be non-Jews? If there is no official position, is there a general consensus among the community?

Heshy
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Daniel
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    They think it is avodah zarah – sam Apr 08 '13 at 21:42
  • "official" position is that even normal Meshichisten are wrong. "Official Meshichist" position is that these crazies are nuts (many of them are known to be mentally ill). – ertert3terte Apr 08 '13 at 22:06
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    @ShmuelBrin If sourced, that sounds like an answer. – Double AA Apr 08 '13 at 22:06
  • @DoubleAA Re. mental illness, I saw a few. It was fairly obvious. – ertert3terte Apr 08 '13 at 22:08
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    @ShmuelBrin, are you a mental-health professional? – Monica Cellio Apr 08 '13 at 22:56
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    @DoubleAA - Such an answer would also do well to define the beliefs of "official" and "official meshichist" vis-à-vis the status of the Rebbe (e.g. don't even most non-meshichists consider that the Rebbe is/will be/likely is/likely will be be b'chezkas Moshiach or Moshiach?) and it's ramifications for practical conduct (e.g. reciting Yechi after davening, wearing Yechi yarmulkes). This way, people know what groups are being referenced. Such an answer should also to justify the claim that "non-meshichists" are "offcial" (there has been a great deal of vying for "official" status in the past). – Fred Apr 08 '13 at 22:57
  • @MonicaCellio you're right. I don't "officially" know (I can't give medication - although I heard that one of them is institutionalized most of the time). However, it's quite clear that the ones that I saw have some kind of mental issues. – ertert3terte Apr 08 '13 at 23:03
  • @MonicaCellio Just to make it clear, it's not that I want to be nasty, making fun of them, etc. – ertert3terte Apr 08 '13 at 23:04
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    There is also another subgroup that would not call the Rebbe "Elokeinu" or the like, but at the same time redefine the expression "עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף" to justify specifically davening facing a picture of the Rebbe (my brother personally witnessed this in a main minyan at K'far Chabad years ago), and refer to the Rebbe as "kol yachol" literally, referring to a type of omnipotence beyond the standard "tzadik gozeir v'HKBH mekayeim." Would such people be halachically distinguished from those few who explicitly refer to the Rebbe as "Elokeinu"? – Fred Apr 08 '13 at 23:08
  • @ShmuelBrin You've met some? Wow, I always thought it was a myth. – HodofHod Apr 08 '13 at 23:32
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    @hodofhod I've seen one some time ago in 770. He got physical evicted after making his announcement. – ertert3terte Apr 08 '13 at 23:51
  • @HodofHod Alexander Milchstein was a real person in Milwaukee who believed that the Rebbe is God. I never met him personally, but my mom did. A large group of rabbis (I don't remember if it was a group of North American Chabad rabbis or if it was the Milwaukee Orthodox rabbis) took out a full page ad in the Milwaukee Jewish Chronicle denouncing him. – Daniel Apr 09 '13 at 02:53
  • @Daniel A disciple of his once came to town collecting for his organization, and a local (mainstream) Chabad rav encouraged his congregants to donate. Either the rav didn't consider it a problem, or he was ignorant of the fact that it is an idolatrous organization (in which case he was being seriously negligent in promoting that organization). – Fred Apr 09 '13 at 03:34
  • @Daniel was ? – ertert3terte Apr 09 '13 at 04:37
  • @msh210 RE: your edit, I don't have any problem with removing the person's name from the question and it is probably superfluous anyway; although the question does not make any value judgement about elokism (although Mi Yodeya users might make their own value judgements), and so I don't know that naming him would constitute lashon hara. Anyway, he wouldn't deny this characterization of his beliefs, and he, in fact, made them widely known. – Daniel Apr 09 '13 at 05:55
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    @Daniel So they claim :) – Double AA Apr 09 '13 at 17:37
  • @DoubleAA Turns out I was wrong and actually he is not dead. He is currently involved in some (unrelated) legal troubles. – Daniel May 26 '14 at 20:11
  • is that even a real thing? Have you met anyone who thinks this way? The only times I have heard of such a thing is on the internet which makes me think this is nothing more than lashen hara – Dude May 26 '14 at 20:04
  • It is a very small group. There is a community in my hometown (Milwaukee) – Daniel May 26 '14 at 20:07
  • are you sure they actually beleive that the Rebbe is Gd? Gd forbid! Perhaps they are using extreme language that expresses a gemara that says in the times of moshiach there will be three things refered to as hakadosh baruch hoo being Jerusalem, moshiach, and tzadikim...? – Dude Nov 03 '15 at 05:09
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    @Dude yes unfortunately I am quite sure. They also make a bbq every year on Tisha B'Av. It's a very small group, though. – Daniel Nov 03 '15 at 12:38
  • I would suggest actually showing the picture that proves that the phrase is actually there. The usual phrase is "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabbeinu Melech haMoshiach l'olam vo'ed!" (יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד) which is the secular meaning and not the sacred meaning. This phrase as quoted may be inaccurate. – sabbahillel Dec 15 '16 at 18:07
  • @sabbahillel The original version of the question included the name of the group and shul in question. It was decided that naming names doesn't really add anything to the question. If you care to look, you can look at the question history. – Daniel Dec 15 '16 at 18:25
  • Just commenting on the facts- here in israel the group is unfortunately much more prevalent especially around tzfas. Here they use the phrase יחי אדונינו "בוראנו" ורבינו... I've seen people with it on their kipas and seen it stamped inside personal sefarim. There was a full page ad about 12 years ago in a newspaper with a picture of the rebbe and the caption Henei elokeinu zeh Harebbe melech hamoshiach hu melech malchei hamelachim HKBH mamash (I can't get myself to write that in Hebrew!) This group includes the rosh yeshiva of the famous Chabad yeshiva in tzfas as well as their av beis din. – Binyomin May 08 '20 at 13:55

1 Answers1

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Of course, Chabad (or anyone else really, but they may use different language) would consider someone practicing Avodah Zarah in its most egregious form still Jewish, but Chabad, both the non-Meshichist side and the Meshichist side, reject this completely.

See here for some links to source letters. Note that the one from the Beis Din of Crown Heights is signed by Rabbi Marlow ע"ה, who was a supporter of the Meshichist side.

There was also a huge Mechoh made back in the times before the internet was in wide use of most of the Rabbonim who support the Meshichist side condemning this idea as completely against Torah. I don't know if a copy exists online.

There is no test of being a "true" Chosid. Such a statement can mean many things, from fitting into the normative practices of the Chassidic community, to a true dedication to the Rebbe's cause. The former is a much larger group than the latter, but there is no official litmus test.

Yishai
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    I would think, based on your first three paragraphs, that anyone who is doing 'Avodah Zarah would be outside the acceptable bounds of what could be considered a "true chosid". – Seth J Oct 17 '13 at 19:22
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    @SethJ, certainly reasonable, but my point is that it just isn't a category that gets "decided" one way or another. – Yishai Oct 17 '13 at 19:30
  • Would worshipping Jesus or Mohammed be enough? Or is even that not decided? – Double AA Oct 17 '13 at 20:29
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    @DoubleAA, It isn't a category, so it doesn't mean anything. But I appreciate the sarcasm. – Yishai Oct 17 '13 at 20:37
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    What sarcasm? Reductio is a strong argument here. I'm challenging your claim that there are no features which are necessary to being a Chassid. (∀x)Cx→□Fx in formal-speak. – Double AA Oct 17 '13 at 20:38
  • @DoubleAA, if you wanted to explore the question, you could look at the attitude of the Chassidim to those who were raised as Chassidim and became communist. I don't think you will find it cut and dry ("once a Chosid always a Chosid" is the expression). Whatever line you draw (and as I said to Seth J it is reasonable one) it is subjective. – Yishai Oct 17 '13 at 20:56
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    Yishai, this is the correct answer. I would suggest you improve it by editing it so that it focuses more on the articles and the documents you linked, perhaps summarizing and directly linking them here. – HodofHod Oct 17 '13 at 21:18