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I was wondering whether Ishmael was a Gentile, because that would seem to mean that an animal slaughtered by him would be non Kosher.

Seth J
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knowit
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    opposite http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/9042/759 – Double AA Mar 01 '13 at 16:42
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    Particularly helpful is this particular answer to the question that @DoubleAA linked to: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/9976/1713 – Daniel Mar 01 '13 at 17:34
  • @Daniel thanks a lot for the pointer , the answer is rather disrespectful and only his own personal views Jim Thio has rebuked him for harboring such intention and judging the prophets as evil after 1000s of years. Who are we to judge their natures? – knowit Mar 01 '13 at 17:46
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    Ali, Esau and Ishmael were not prophets. That answer links to a sources (so it's not only the answerer's views). This is not the place to discuss that answer: if you can recommend an edit to it, then comment there. And I use the Oxford comma. – msh210 Mar 01 '13 at 19:54
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    if we can't say that Abraham was a Jew, because the word didn't exist, then how can we say anyone was a Gentile (meaning a non-Jew)? You can't be a "not" of a thing that doesn't exist, can you? – rosends Mar 01 '13 at 21:10
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    There was no such thing as Kosher then. – Seth J Mar 03 '13 at 18:07
  • @Dan The word "Jew" is semantics. The word not being coined yet does not exclude the possibility of a distinct category of people. – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 20:09
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    @SethJ Perhaps there was no obligation yet to keep Kosher, but there still could be "such a thing" as Kosher. – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 20:10
  • @Michoel I don't particularly feel like playing these games anymore with Ali. I don't much care to start with you or anyone else, either. No offense. – Seth J Mar 03 '13 at 21:01

2 Answers2

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The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Likkutey Sichos vol. 15 pg. 192 and footnote 12-13 there) asserts that (unlike Eisav who the Gemora calls an apostate Jew), Yishmael did not have the legal status of a Jew. He cites the view of many commentators, that only "in Yitzchok will be called your seed" (Genesis 21:12), whereas Yishmael was not considered the seed of Avraham and was disinherited (verse 10 there: "Drive out this handmaid and her son, for the son of this handmaid shall not inherit with my son, with Isaac"). For further elaboration he references to a lengthier discussion on the topic of whether Yishmael was considered Jewish in "Beis Ha'otzar" (Rabbi Yosef Engel, Klal Aleph Ois Gimmel and Ois Yud Ches).

Two verses later, God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased concerning the lad and concerning your handmaid; whatever Sarah tells you, hearken to her voice, for in Isaac will be called your seed."

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Michoel
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  • This verse was said by the jealous(God forbid) wife of Abraham and not GOD : (verse 10 there: "Drive out this handmaid and her son, for the son of this handmaid shall not inherit with my son, with Isaac"). – knowit Mar 03 '13 at 10:05
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    @Ali: Two verses later, G-d acknowledges that Sarah's words are prophetic and true: And God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased concerning the lad and concerning your handmaid; whatever Sarah tells you, hearken to her voice, for in Isaac will be called your seed." – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 11:19
  • @Michoel Well, He just to follow them. Not that they are "prophetic and true". – Double AA Mar 03 '13 at 16:58
  • Isn't there a distinction between "seed" and "children"? I heard a Rabbi say that Jews are the seed of Avraham and gerim are children of Avraham. I'm not 100% clear on what that meant. – EhevuTov Jul 01 '15 at 00:34
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Everyone was a gentile then. So, yes, his slaughtered animals would not meet the standards of what we call "kosher". But don't worry: no one around at that time was required to eat only kosher.

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msh210
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    It's actually not at all simple whether before Matan Torah Jews had the legal status of bnei noach or were considered Jewish. See the Perashas Derachim (Derech Ha'asarim Drush Aleph) at length who brings many opinions in the rishonim on this. In fact, the Bnei Yissachar (in one of his maamarim for Shabbas Hagadol) suggests that this was actually a machlokes between Yosef and his brothers. – Michoel Mar 02 '13 at 12:08
  • @Michoel, see also the other answers to the question one of whose answers I linked to here. – msh210 Mar 03 '13 at 05:44
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    @msh210 I was not referring to the semantics of the term "Jewish" but to the halachic status of Torah observant people pre-Matan Torah. Although the avos kept mitzvos, there is a discussion whether this was just "lechumrah" or they were actually considered no longer "bnei noach". This would make a difference in cases when it would be a kulah to keep mitzvos - for example, were they permitted to keep Shabbos? Eat meat that had been slaughtered but still twitches etc. – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 06:17
  • [cont.] According to the opinion that they were fully fledged Jews, there would certainly be a difference between their shechitah and that of a gentile. – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 06:20
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    @Michoel Why do we only have to choose between those two statuses? (Plus I'm sure you are aware that the extent the Avos kept mitzvos is a large machlokes Rishonim and Amoraim.) – Double AA Mar 03 '13 at 18:00
  • @DoubleAA Not sure where you are headed; what other statuses could there be? – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 20:03
  • Interesting question (that the Lubavitcher Rebbe discusses at length): could the Jews after Matan Torah eat the meat which they had shechted prior? Did they have to toivel their dishes? etc.. – Michoel Mar 03 '13 at 20:04
  • @Michoel Any other status we want to make up. The Torah wasn't given yet. Perhaps there were other possible statuses only applicable then, such as: pre-Jew==not obligated in mitzvot but allowed to keep shabbat. Something like that. – Double AA Mar 03 '13 at 20:15
  • ...or not obligated, but had good Shehitah. Ping @doubleaa – Seth J Mar 03 '13 at 22:11
  • Ping @Michoel... – Seth J Mar 03 '13 at 22:11
  • The "kosher" of the time for all was ever min hachai – EhevuTov Jul 01 '15 at 00:29
  • @Michoel, according to Nedarim, Avraham merited to no longer be called bnei Noach. This seems to apply only to bnei Yisrael, but not sure. – EhevuTov Jul 01 '15 at 00:31