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Which authorities permit women wearing "womens' pants", as long as it is covered by a skirt, in lieu of tights in non-athletic situations, for example as a more comfortable, warmer, or even more tznius option? Why do those who forbid the practice in any case hold that way?

msh210
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yoel
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    FTR, "womens' pants" are pants made specifically for women, which according to some authorities removes the "beged ish" issue. – yoel Dec 31 '12 at 04:41
  • Apparently the Chazon Ish permitted wearing womens' pants under a skirt in athletic situations. – yoel Dec 31 '12 at 04:43
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    Strongly related. – yoel Dec 31 '12 at 04:43
  • Maybe I'm missing something, but why would they be forbidden in the first place? They are made for women, and are under a skirt. What possible issue could there be? – Ariel Dec 31 '12 at 06:36
  • @Ariel some hold that pants are always beged ish. Some hold that pants are always untznius. Perhaps a second question might be, though, why this isn't a more widespread practice if there are no issues with it. – yoel Dec 31 '12 at 08:09
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    @yoel Beged ish, maybe. But how could it possibly be untznius?? It's under the skirt. – Ariel Dec 31 '12 at 10:35
  • @Ariel to the best of my understanding, the way pants fit snugly and separate between the legs is inherently untznius, even if covered. I confess I do not understand this line of thinking, especially since stockings would seem to suffer the same issues. – yoel Dec 31 '12 at 16:54
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    @yoel I've heard people justify this notion from an extrapolation from Pesachim (3a), which says that it is a tad indelicate to explicitly mention that a woman rode astride an animal. However, the gemara in Shabbos (13b) describes a garment called a sinar that a woman would wear at night, which the Chidushei Riv'van describes as "the female equivalent of men's pants". The gemara suggests that it is tzniyus to wear this garment in the context described. The latter source seems much less ambiguous to me on the issue of whether pant-like garments are inherently toxic. – Fred Dec 31 '12 at 18:04
  • @yoel, I can think of only two reasons to object to a woman wearing pants under a skirt - "what message does it send" and that it might lead to sin, which seem extreme to me. In terms of this question, I think you need to reframe it not to ask who allows it, but who doesn't and why, because I don't think anyone really forbids it except as I mentioned. Like you said, if it's about separating the legs even if covered by a skirt, stockings would then also be inherently "untzius", as would not wearing any leg-covering garment beneath the skirt. It's impossible to satisfy this line of reasoning. – Seth J Feb 12 '13 at 19:25
  • @SethJ that would probably be a stronger question in theory, but l'maaseh this just isn't done (at least in the communities with which I am familiar) and so maybe the real question is why don't women do this? Anecdotally, my wife has said how much she wishes she could do this, especially in the winter, and that it was too bad it was assur. She couldn't say exactly where she heard it was assur, only that no other frum women she knew wore pants under their skirts. – yoel Feb 12 '13 at 19:53
  • @yoel, on the flip side, I know of nobody who prohibits it, in all the frum communities in which I've lived, the rare exception being those communities that enforce their own standards internally (via schools and social pressure). In those communities that don't enforce standards on the entire community, people don't even think about it as something they shouldn't do but are considering doing anyway. It's not even on the radar. If you're cold, and you hold that only skirts are "tzniusdik", you put a pair of pants on under your skirt. In school, at home, and I've even seen it at Shul. So... – Seth J Feb 12 '13 at 20:16
  • I guess my point is that in a self-sheltering community it might seem to make sense to avoid it if that's the standard of the community, but as a matter of Halachah, it's not "Who says it's OK?" but "Why is it not OK here?" – Seth J Feb 12 '13 at 20:17
  • @SethJ not to press the point, but I don't think the community I live in is self-sheltering or that it enforces those kinds of communal standards in any meaningful way. It's certainly not a "modern" community, but I don't think my wife felt like she was being socially obliged not to wear pants under her skirt - she just figured that since nobody else did it, it wasn't permitted. Maybe all the other women are assuming the same thing? Do you mind if I ask how you would define hashkafically the communities in which pants under the skirt is a no-brainer? – yoel Feb 12 '13 at 21:59
  • I'll have to get back to you on that. On mobile at the moment. Perhaps we should move to chat? – Seth J Feb 12 '13 at 22:27
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    @Fred "The gemara suggests that it is tzniyus to wear this garment in the context described." The gemara says that is obligatory to wear them always, for to not wear them is immodest (BK82a) and this is codified as an obligation of modesty by the Rambam (Ishut 24:13). – Double AA Jun 23 '14 at 19:38
  • @DoubleAA Indeed, the custom of Yemenite women is to wear pants underneath a skirt. – mevaqesh Dec 01 '16 at 20:20

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It might not be a problem in technical halacha, however it definitely doesn't fit with being a Bas Melech. Every Jewish women and girl is a princess - Dovid Hamelech established this fact in Tehilim chapter 45. Therefore Jewish women have to live up to their essence and dress always in an elegant, regal and royal mode of dress.

dys
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  • dys, welcome to Mi Yodeya, and thanks very much for contributing this answer! you could make it even more valuable by [edit]ing in a source that maps Tehilim 45 directly to a discouragement for women to wear pants. Also, please consider registering your account, which will give you access to more of the site's features. – Isaac Moses Jan 13 '13 at 19:06
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    PS: http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/article/TMG3496177/The-Queen-in-trousers.html – Isaac Moses Jan 13 '13 at 19:07
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    Why rely on David for that? God Himself tells us the Jewish nation is a Kingship in Shemot 19:6, so it follows that the men and women of the nation are princes and princesses, if not kings and queens. – Double AA Jan 13 '13 at 20:18
  • can you provide a source which indicates that pants under a dress/skirt cannot fit this definition of wearing clothing fir for a bas melech? – Dude Feb 27 '17 at 19:37