Does a ger have to tovel their dishes?

Question

When a ger finishes their conversion, must they tovel (immerse in a mikvah) their dishes? Does it matter if they had toveled them previously?

Why should they? The Halacha only extends to transactions - buying from a non-Jew or capturing from a non-Jew (AZ 75b). Do we find elsewhere that property of a convert is considered to be given from his pre-conversion self to his post-conversion self? — DonielF, Jun 21 '17 at 04:34

Double AA · Accepted Answer · 2012-11-06T23:48:23.343

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Shevet HaLevi 6:245:2 rules that he would have to tovel them with a bracha. He doesn't distinguish if they were toveled already beforehand and I fail to see why that would make a difference.

Tzitz Eliezer 22:49 rules that they should be toveled without a bracha, reasoning that perhaps the tevillah of the person works to 'elevate' him along with all his property.

edited Nov 06 '12 at 23:48

answered Nov 06 '12 at 20:52

Double AA

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Fortunately, he's at the mikva already. :-) – msh210 Nov 06 '12 at 21:07
If the ger toveled the dishes before conversion, some opinions would say that after the conversion they were a Jew at the time that they toveled them. Similarly, I learned that if a prospective ger bakes a loaf of bread and then finishes their geirus, the bread is pas Yisroel. That aside, nicely sourced answer, thanks. – yoel Nov 06 '12 at 21:34
@yoel I haven't seen the opinion you cite about Pat Akum inside, but it seems to me that that kind of issue would be similar to this one in that the gezera might not apply if there is no chashash of X. If tevillat keilim is a deoraita (which we seem to paskin for metal keilim) then I find it much harder to say something like that will apply. – Double AA Nov 06 '12 at 23:10
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@yoel, I learned from a rabbi at Ohr Somayach that if a home-brewer converts, any wine he started before he completed his conversion is forbidden to him even if it never left his supervision. But maybe wine is different from bread. – Monica Cellio Nov 07 '12 at 01:32

score 7 · Answer 2 · edited Nov 08 '12 at 16:01

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R' Usher Weiss shlita (Minchas Osher) argues that he doesn't have to, based on the Chazon Ish's principle (Shvi'is 7) that if there's a halacha that comes up all the time and is not a fringe case, and nobody (mishna, gemoro, rishonim, poskim) mentions it, that is an indication that there is no such halacha. This is such a case, since it's relevant every time someone converts and nobody in the past has mentioned it until 50 years ago.

The shiur (Hebrew) is here: click on the one from תשע"א and see from 30 minutes on.

edited Nov 08 '12 at 16:01

msh210

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answered Nov 07 '12 at 10:14

limos

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Does he have a makor for this? What is the makor of the Chazzon Ish? Since you nicely pointed out where it is I'll listen to hear. However if you'd like to add a comment or edit your answer and write in his exact makor I think many would appreciate it! – Yehoshua Nov 07 '12 at 10:51
45 mins and on? Doesn't seem to be right... – Yehoshua Nov 07 '12 at 10:56
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@Yehoshua If I have time I'll listen through again and do that. Feel free to edit the answer yourself if you get there first. I think applying the chazon ish to this question is his own svara, he's certainly on a level to argue with R' Wosner (he does mention the opinions quoted in DoubleAA's answer) – limos Nov 07 '12 at 10:58
Sorry, you're correct. From 30 minutes. I'll update the answer – limos Nov 07 '12 at 11:00
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I don't understand your proof. Maybe it was so obvious that they have to tovel them that no one mentioned it. In fact, that was my first intuition upon reading the question: duh they have to tovel them! – Double AA Nov 07 '12 at 17:36
@DoubleAA I agree - all Jews have to tovel their dishes. Why would it be different for gerim? – yoel Nov 07 '12 at 19:08
@yoel (Just FTR I didn't mean that your question is a bad quesiton; sometimes the answer to something seems apparent, but proving it is still challenging.) – Double AA Nov 07 '12 at 19:13
@DoubleAA no worries, and on the contrary, it seems to me that the burden of proof here is on those who would say "no". Your source for toveling is naturally valuable. Perhaps, though, limos here provides a limud zechus for those who conduct themselves differently. – yoel Nov 07 '12 at 19:37
The Chazzon Ish he quotes he says is in Shvi'is Siman 7. Look at this page: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14335&st=&pgnum=217 ... Last paragraph on the bottom starting "Terem" and going to the next page. He seems to be saying this idea in context to the discussion of before. I wouldn't say the Chazzon Ish (if this is it) is as strong as Rav Asher Weiss made it seem to be. – Yehoshua Nov 07 '12 at 20:36
It's not just the chazon ish, R' Usher also quotes a beis meir who says much the same thing. @yoel, R' Usher was not saying it as a limmud zechus, listen to the shiur (it's quite easy Hebrew). He knew he was up against R' Elyashiv ztl and ybl"c R' Shternbuch and R' Wosner shlita, and he paskens lehalacha that a ger does not tovel his keilim. (If it sounds more authoritative coming from the name of a sefer I can call him the Minchas Osher if you prefer) – limos Nov 08 '12 at 08:22
@DoubleAA also if you listen to the shiur he gives a svora why he wouldn't need to - tvilas keilim is not like hagolas keilim, there's no bli'os or anything, it's when keilim change reshus in dinei mamonos to a Jew's possession. When a ger is nisgayer there is no mamonos transaction happening, his property does not become hefker such that he'd have to do a new kinyan on it, and his keilim don't transfer reshus either to require tevilah. – limos Nov 08 '12 at 10:16
@limos - So where is the Beis Meir? I'd like to see it inside. You see he quoted a Chazzon Ish (and even gave a makom for it) and it doesn't seem to live up to the way he presented it. – Yehoshua Nov 08 '12 at 10:34
@Yehoshua It's all in the shiur. I don't remember if he gave an exact reference or not but if he did it's in there. Also, not that R' Weiss needs me to defend him, but I don't see why you think the Chazon Ish is not saying that. – limos Nov 08 '12 at 13:22
@limos - I listened to the shiur he didn't give a mareh makom for the Beis Meir. The Chazzon Ish might say something along the lines that he did however certainly not as strong and wasn't said as a klal but rather in context to a certain din – Yehoshua Nov 08 '12 at 15:38
@DoubleAA, re "I don't understand your proof", Rabbi Weiss's. limos, re "he gives a svora...", might I suggest you edit that into the answer for completeness? – msh210 Nov 08 '12 at 16:03
@limos Rav Wosner mentions that svara in his teshuva, but I still contend that the fact no one mentioned that original svara in mishna gemoro rishonim and poskim until now shows it's not the halacha. (See how your own trick works against you?) – Double AA Nov 08 '12 at 16:19
@DoubleAA it's not MY trick. I think most people would consider R' Weiss at least as respected as R' Wosner (Shevet Halevi) and certainly able to argue with him. And the "trick", as you call it, is only for actual halochos lemaaseh, so it doesn't work against "me" for a svora. – limos Nov 11 '12 at 09:17

mbloch · Answer 3 · 2019-06-19T03:32:29.523

All opinions exist, as R Michael J Broyde reports in an article in Hakirah vol. 26 p. 146 (Are Converts to Judaism Required to Immerse Their Utensils after Conversion?)

Avenei Nezer and Shem MiShmuel rule it is not required as the convert's dishes get immersed with him/her metaphysically once (s)he converts
R Ovadia Yosef rules it is not required since the convert does not acquire the dishes anew from a non-Jew
R Asher Weiss rules it is not required as there is no trace of such a requirement in the Talmud or earlier halachic codes and since there is no transfer from person to person
R Shmuel HaLevi Wosner rules it is required since it was owned by a non-Jew and is now owned by a Jew - so is also the ruling of R Yosef Shalom Eliashiv and R Chaim Kanievsky

As a result, in practice, the current chief Rabbi of Israel, R Yitzchak Yosef adopts the view one should immerse metal utensils (since their obligation is d'oraita according to many) without a blessing and one doesn't need to immerse non-metal since they are d'rabbanan and one is usually lenient there.

The Manhattan Beit Din for conversions under the guidance of R Hershel Schachter follows the middle position of immersing without a blessing.

Last, the most creative option is to have the convert purchase a new metal utensil which requires immersing, do it with a blessing and aim to cover the rest of his/her utensils immersed right after.

See the original article at length for sources.

score 3 · Answer 4 · answered Jun 21 '17 at 02:12

As mentioned in @Limos answer Rav Asher Weiss deals with this question. I will be detailing what is written in his Shu"t Chelek 3:66(itvshould be known that I did not listen to the shuir limos linked).

Rav Asher Weiss notes that he heard from both the mouths of Rav Eliyashiv and Rav Chaim Kaniefsky that a ger is obligated to tovel their keilim with a bracha. However,Rav Weiss explains that such a din isnt mentioned by the Rishonim or the poskim,and he qoutes the Chazon Ish which is qouted in @Limos answer.

He continues by noting that the din of tevilas keileim apllies only when the utensils are being tranferred from one reshus to another,and a ger doesnt change his keileim from reshus to reshus. He also notes that the halacha has to be analogous to the father of all cases which is klei Midyan,snd that was a change of reshus. Thebfact that a Jew can borrow a kli from a non Jew and use it without tevila also proves that a ger shouldnt have to tovel their utensils.

He then qoutes the Mahari HaLevi 1:109 that asks why the Jews didnt have to tovel their utensils after matan Torah,and he answers because such a halacha does not exist. The Marshag 3:48 says the same as well.

The last and most fascinating source he brings is from the Shem M'Shmuel(Parshas Matos year תרע"ח pg.403) in the name of his father the Avnei Nezer who says that when the ger is tovel it works for his utensils as well just like the din by Temurah 30b.

Rav Weiss ends off saying that mikar hadin a ger does not need to tovel his utensils but according to the Marshag there is a benefit to tovel without a bracha...and תבא עליו ברכה

Does a ger have to tovel their dishes?

4 Answers4