4

In modern times, we go out of our way to make sure that we never find out that someone is a mamzer. For example, courts in Israel are very reluctant to order paternity tests for children for fear of it being discovered. As a result of all of this--and the unfortunate prevalence of "cheating"--wouldn't we expect that many of the people who we treat as non-mamzerim actually are mamzerim?

There are also situations where children are born who are almost certainly mamzerim, but we bend over backwards to find a possible way that they are not (e.g. the husband returned home from Europe over night and had relations with the wife with neither of them remembering).

When we do things like this, don't we just facilitate the spreading of mamzeirus throughout the Jewish community? Wouldn't we expect that eventually, all Jews would be mamzerim chas v'shalom?

Daniel
  • 24,888
  • 3
  • 48
  • 148
  • 4
    I object to your wording. Mamzerim are full-fledged Jews. They must follow Halachah like all others and have a share in 'Olam HaBa. – Seth J Aug 16 '12 at 15:29
  • @SethJ Is this edit better? – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:30
  • 1
    Lo bashamayim hi. Mamzers are only what we say they are. If we define it out of existence, the class no longer exists. – Charles Koppelman Aug 16 '12 at 15:33
  • 1
    Why not just say "non-Mamzerim"? Or just leave out that clause altogether: "wouldn't we expect that many people are actually mamzerim?" – Seth J Aug 16 '12 at 15:36
  • 1
    Can you source the fact that this is a modern innovation? – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 15:41
  • 2
    And can you find a source that cheating is more prevalent? – Yirmeyahu Aug 16 '12 at 15:43
  • @DoubleAA I would not claim that this is a modern innovation; however, we do have some techniques for finding out now, like DNA testing, that were not available in the past. Yet we avoid using them. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:47
  • @yirmeyahu It may or may not be more prevalent now, but it is prevalent. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:48
  • 1
    @Daniel DNA testing, if done, would establish mamzerut? – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 15:48
  • 1
    @SethJ I have changed it as you suggested. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:49
  • @CharlesKoppelman So you say that we not only treat such people as non-mamzerim, but they actually are not mamzerim? A person can go from actually not being a mamzer to being a mamzer instantaneously upon discovering that his father is not the man married to his wife? – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:51
  • @DoubleAA According to this site, it would. I believe some godol hador has ruled on this. I'll try to look it up. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:54
  • 1
    @Daniel That's not exactly a strong Halachik source in my mind. Why don't you check out discussion we've had on Mi Yodeya here http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/9938/dna-and-jewish-law – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 15:57
  • @DoubleAA Rav Elyashiv ruled that DNA testing can establish mamzeirus – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 15:58
  • @Daniel Technically we can only deduce that he thinks it at least might establish mamzerut. – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 16:08
  • 1
    We can prove via DNA that this person's biological father isn't his mother's husband, but that doesn't prove mamzerut because the biological father could be a non-Jew. Even if we can prove that this man's father is Joe the Jew (who was never married to this woman), it's not clear. Rabbi Breitowitz said he'd assume that would make mamzerut; Rabbi Mordechai Willig has posited it's still not clear proof, as maybe there was an artificial insemination (which, according to Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, doesn't create mamzerut either). – Shalom Aug 16 '12 at 17:21
  • @shalom that is exactly the kind of somersault that I'm talking about to not find out that the child is a mamzer. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 17:29
  • @Daniel Isn't it wonderful that we're willing to go to such great lengths to love and include each other in klal yisrael? – Charles Koppelman Aug 16 '12 at 17:31
  • 1
    @CharlesKoppelman Absolutely. I'm just wondering what the end result will be. If people are actually unknowing mamzerim, wouldn't they be violating the negative commandment to not marry non-mamzerim? – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 17:40
  • 1
    @Daniel Why was that a somersault? Isn't that standard Halachik legal reasoning? – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 18:09
  • There's a shiur on yutorah from Rabbi Hershel Schachter where he explains that knowledge of mamzerut is what creates the prohibition. So if we don't know, we're just as happy ... – Shalom Aug 16 '12 at 18:12
  • @Shalom That answers my question. Post that as an answer, if possible with a link to the shiur, and I will happily accept it. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 18:24
  • 1
    related: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/9018/what-evidence-is-required-to-indicate-mamzer-status – Charles Koppelman Aug 16 '12 at 20:15
  • @CharlesKoppelman: close but not quite. It's the act of knowing (not a declaration) that generates the issur. Rabbi Schachter's other example was bringing a korban for finding out one had inadvertently entered the Temple while impure. If Shmerel doesn't know he was impure at the time, I have no obligation to tell him. – Shalom Aug 21 '12 at 00:45

1 Answers1

7

See Encyclopedia Judaica's discussion of Mamzerim in Jewish Law. From there:

In addition, the Mishnah cites a tradition that "Eliyahu will not come [in the future] to declare the pure, impure – nor to declare the impure, pure; nor to distance those who are near or to draw near those who were distanced, but only to distance those drawn near by force and to draw near those distanced by force" (Eduyyot 8:7).

R. Obadiah of Bertinoro interprets the citation as meaning that Eliyahu will only distance those who are publicly known to be tainted but were forcibly intermingled among the Jewish People, "but where there is a tainted individual in a particular family, but this is not publicly known, owing to the family having intermingled [into the Jewish community], Eliyahu will let it remain so and let the family retain its presumption of legitimacy."

This was the basis for the Rema's ruling (Sh. Ar., EH 2:5 [translation here]) that if a person learns that one of the progenitors of a particular family is tainted by mamzerut, he may not reveal this, "but rather he should allow the presumption of their legitimacy to remain intact, for all the families that have become assimilated into Israel are legitimate in the future."

Menachem
  • 44,362
  • 6
  • 127
  • 247