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Suppose tissue identical to that of a pig could be created synthetically (with kosher ingredients) in a science lab. The meat would be completely indistinguishable from pig meat, but it would never have actually been part of a real, live pig. Would this be kosher? If so, would it be meat or parve? If beef were created synthetically would it be meat or parve?

My guess would be that both would be kosher and technically parve, but rabbis would rule that it should not be eaten with dairy to avoid maris ayin. Possibly for the same reason, they would rule that the synthetic pork should not be eaten.

Has this been discussed anywhere?

Related: If a pig was genetically modified to chew its cud, would it be kosher?

EDIT:

I am referring to a completely synthetic process. For example, supposing the scientists figured out the chemical composition of the tissue and performed chemical reactions to fabricate it rather than growing it from some pre-existing animal cells.

Major edit:

See this link about using a 3-d printer to print edible meat.

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Daniel
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    related? http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/11269/does-artificial-meat-grown-in-a-petri-dish-have-the-halachic-status-of-meat – rosends Aug 08 '12 at 16:02
  • It was discussed in my classroom when I was in high school and there was talk of cloning sheep. You mean has any conclusive Halachic decision been published anywhere? – Seth J Aug 08 '12 at 16:19
  • @SethJ Not necessarily. Relevant sources are helpful, even if there is no conclusive decision. Also, cloning sheep is different from what I ask because it would require taking cells from an actual live (or dead) sheep and likely causing a new live sheep to be born. I'm talking about a completely synthetic process. – Daniel Aug 08 '12 at 16:25
  • Right, I was just drawing on the fact that this was, in fact, discussed. Just not necessarily by anyone you care to hear from. – Seth J Aug 08 '12 at 16:34
  • http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14436/759 dupe? – Double AA Aug 09 '12 at 03:16
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    @DoubleAA I'm talking about if they could create it without any basic cells including stem cells from actual animals. I don't mean grow the meat, I mean fabricate it. – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 13:04
  • Wouldn't that fall in the category of spontaneously generated meat and therefore kosher and parve? – Charles Koppelman Aug 09 '12 at 15:27
  • @CharlesKoppelman I have never heard of that category. Could you elaborate? – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 15:56
  • @Daniel After poking around, it looks like spontaneously generated meat is not necessarily kosher - only if it's spontaneously generated inside a kosher animal (see halakhot on worms in fish). However, I think we can apply the same halakhic theory to lab experiments that Chazal did to supposed spontaneously-generated animals. Here's a good explanation of some of those halakhot but does not include kashrut ramifications. – Charles Koppelman Aug 09 '12 at 16:42
  • Also, see the sources cited in this answer for cows giving birth to kosher camels. – Charles Koppelman Aug 09 '12 at 16:53
  • @CharlesKoppelman I wouldn't even be meat if you did that. To "fabricate" meat you would build up some amino acids (which we already do for vegan meat substitutes). To be meat it has to come from a cell. We have no ability to create such a cell, we can only take an existing one and grow it. So the final result is made from whatever animal you started with. – Ariel Aug 09 '12 at 20:35
  • @Ariel I would posit that to be meat, it needs to come from an animal, not from a cell. But I don't know what halakha says. That's what this question is asking. – Charles Koppelman Aug 09 '12 at 20:47
  • @CharlesKoppelman An animal is a bunch of cells all together. But that's not my point. This "meat" is made from a pig cell, is therefor probably not kosher. Daniel claims you can make it completely synthetically, but you can't - you make it from an animal. – Ariel Aug 09 '12 at 21:47
  • @CharlesKoppelman That is not what my question is asking. I was asking about chemically creating tissue, which Ariel says cannot currently be done. I still think that my question is valid, though. – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 21:50
  • @Ariel See above – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 21:51
  • @Daniel I agree that your question is valid. If Talmud can ask about a cow giving birth to a camel, we can certinly ask about creating synthetic meat. But I'd argue that in order to answer your question, you need to know what constitutes "meat" in halakha. – Charles Koppelman Aug 09 '12 at 21:52
  • @CharlesKoppelman Yes, that is my question. – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 21:54
  • @Daniel If you create the "meat" chemically it's not meat. There is nothing about it that's meat anymore than TVP is meat despite being very similar chemically to meat. (Both are amino acids.) – Ariel Aug 09 '12 at 22:53
  • @Ariel can you source that claim? – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 22:56
  • @Daniel I don't even understand that request. What is there to source? If you put amino acids together it's not meat - it was never alive. You aren't even talking about lab grown meat (as I initially assumed) which is at least alive (and does exist). What about it makes it meat? The taste? – Ariel Aug 10 '12 at 02:40
  • @Daniel I think I may have understood your question. Tell me if I am right: You are asking if we had the ability to create artificial life from scratch would that life be kosher? – Ariel Aug 10 '12 at 03:15
  • @Ariel Yes, that is pretty much the question, although it doesn't really matter to me whether the created animal is ever alive in the interim. – Daniel Aug 10 '12 at 03:18
  • @Daniel It would have to be alive in the middle - otherwise there is no question that it's kosher. If it's not alive then you are making it from basic amino acids which are sourced from vegetables (animals can not make amino acids from scratch, only bacteria and plants can). So your question boils down to: "Is artificial life life?" Which is quite similar to the question: "Is an artificial intelligence alive?" I can't answer those questions, but I can tell you that doing either of those things is currently impossible for us, and is not like to become possible anytime soon. – Ariel Aug 10 '12 at 03:43
  • @Ariel Actually, it seems as though it may be possible pretty soon after all. See the link I added to the question. – Daniel Aug 16 '12 at 04:44
  • @Daniel That's not the part I said was impossible. That meat is made from regular animal cells which is certainly possible. Creating cells from scratch is what is impossible. The meat is made from pig cells, see: http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0228895-engineered-comestible-meat.html and would therefor be non-kosher (davar ha ma'amid). It might not have the halachic status of meat though - it might be considered parve since although the cells are alive, it's not born to a parent. And apparently he's a Rabbi too since the submission claims it will be kosher. – Ariel Aug 16 '12 at 18:00
  • Similar: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/28978 – msh210 May 27 '13 at 00:41

2 Answers2

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There are four options here:

The "meat" is made from plant matter, arranged in the same shape as meat (proteins, fat, etc), but there are no animal cells. The "meat" is vegetarian.

The meat comes from animal cells, and the starting animal cell was not kosher. The meat is then not kosher, despite the huge bitul in the growth medium. This is because the starting cell is considered a Davar Hama'amid and is never batul.

The meat comes from a cell taken from a kosher animal that was shechted properly. According to Chullin 69a if a live fetus was found in a shechted mother the fetus can be eaten without shechting it again. The same would apply to a cell taken from a shechted cow: Any meat made from it is already considered shechted and can be eaten.

The meat comes from a cell taken from a kosher animal that was NOT shechted. I have no idea what the halacha is here. You can't shecht it - there is no complete animal to shecht.

I was thinking that perhaps the meat might be parve since it was not born from a living animal, but maybe not: The cell that started it came from a living animal, so that might be enough for it to not be parve.

PS. Once this meat is on the market an actual posek would have to rule. I am not a posek.

Charles Koppelman
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Ariel
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There already exists Kosher bacon bits which is made from all Kosher ingredients and has reliable Kosher supervision. It is marked as Parave. So I do not see why this would be any different.

Gershon Gold
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    Because Kosher bacon bits have the taste as bacon, but not the same chemical composition as bacon. – Daniel Aug 08 '12 at 16:37
  • It's not the chemical composition, the proposal is to grow actual pig cells. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 19:51
  • @Ariel: No it isn't. The proposal is to fabricate pig cells in a lab without growing them from stem cells. – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 15:59
  • @Daniel How would you do that? Actually I can tell you: it's not possible for us to fabricate pig cells from scratch. As of right now only Hashem can do that. – Ariel Aug 09 '12 at 20:33
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    @Ariel "Not possible" and "as of right now" are two very different things. I don't see how we could say that we'd never be able to do this; so I think that my question is valid. – Daniel Aug 09 '12 at 21:52
  • @Daniel When you say "fabricate pig cells in a lab" please be more specific. Are you copying pig DNA and somehow building a cell for it to live in? Are you making your own DNA from scratch? Both of those options are far far beyond us. What we have the ability to do is take pig DNA and put it in a cell from something else, but it's still pig if you do that. I'll do my best to explain, but please tell me what you are asking. – Ariel Aug 10 '12 at 02:46