I have read and heard in certain places that among certain Orthodox groups, if one converts with Chabad-Lubavitch that their conversion will not be valid, if someone were to convert with Chabad and then decide later to join the Breslov movement, or Satmar. Would that person have to undergo conversion once more? I want to convert to Judaism and am currently at a Chabad shule but I have been becoming more interested in the Breslov movement, and there is no Breslov shule in my country, would I have to undergo conversion once more to be accepted fully in other Orthodox groups if I had converted with Chabad already?
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4I am surprised at this. I have never heard it before. Where did you read or hear this? – b a Aug 08 '12 at 05:57
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I have heard in a few places and seen comments on websites, articles on websites, and have even heard it from a few Jewish friends that Chabad is not Judaism, because certain members feel that the Rebbe was moshiach. I will try to find one of the places I read it. But I will be very glad if I am wrong and Chabad conversions are valid. – Ger Aug 08 '12 at 06:05
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@Ger You are reading the words of Shach, and yes he did say that, but he got into fights with a huge number of people and groups. In any case Chabad has split - not all members hold with the Messianism. In fact I believe most don't. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 10:34
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@Ger I should also point out that these fights are mostly Israeli (since they are strongly tied to the politics there). In the US you won't have any problems. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 10:48
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1Maybe you should just make sure that the particular rabbi doing your conversion and the beit din are not mashichists – Daniel Aug 08 '12 at 13:12
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As the comments above me have pointed out, not all Chabad chasidim believe that the Rebbe is mashiach. Also, by the way, even if someone is converted by chasidim who do believe that, the conversion is probably valid (see this) – b a Aug 08 '12 at 14:28
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4@Ariel it's customary to put "Rabbi" before a rabbi's last name. – msh210 Aug 08 '12 at 15:08
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8Woe is to us that this is a valid question. – shachna Aug 08 '12 at 15:15
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2Ger, could you edit in where you heard this? If you have links, so we can try to follow the reasoning of those who say that, so much the better. (I suspect that what you have heard is not correct.) – Monica Cellio Aug 08 '12 at 16:35
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2I don't know why this has been downvoted. It does not seem to me that Ger is asking anything controversial. He is in the process of converting and wants to know if he will encounter problems and if he should seek out an alternative Beith Din (and how to do that). – Seth J Aug 08 '12 at 17:13
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@SethJ I downvoted because the question hinges on several faulty premises, not least of which is the fact that Chabad does not, as a general rule, involve themselves with conversions. There is a legitimate question in here but it needs a lot improvement. – yoel Aug 09 '12 at 03:06
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1I am still currently still trying to find out where I found this information, and if anyone has any ideas on another way to word the question would be quite helpful. I will put the links up of where I read the information, if I can find it again. – Ger Aug 09 '12 at 03:31
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Administrative note: A series of comments here veered widely from the topic of the question (and some of them got rude) and I've deleted them. Please take discussion not about the question to chat. – msh210 Aug 13 '12 at 16:39
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I am a ger who converted with Chabad Beis Din and ,BH ,I am accepted in Satmar ( they invited me to simches and they brought me to speak to their rebbe) I am also accepted in the yeshivis world ,got alyot in their shuls
sholy
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1i got alyos in 2 shuls (in 1 shul only the main rabbi knew, and now he is not there anymore, so they still give me alyos)In the other shul a Chabad rabbi that davens there called me, so they keep calling me.The Satmar guy knows about my conversion and (I guess he told his rebbe) – sholy Nov 03 '13 at 21:52
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In Breslov specifically we are careful to adhere to the Rebbe's words and avoid any unnecessary stringencies. As such, a conversion by a shomer Shabbos beis din that involved bris mila, mikvah, and sincere and total kabalos mitzvos would generally be seen as valid to most Breslov communities and individuals.
All that said, to the best of my knowledge Chabad does not perform conversions.
yoel
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2The question then becomes, is whatever the issue Ger heard of a unnecessary stringency or a necessary stringency. – Double AA Aug 09 '12 at 02:54
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1@DoubleAA what would be a necessary stringency? I can think of some chumros that we have in Breslov - glatt and gebrokts come to mind - but by "unnecessary" I was just using really the loshon of Rabbenu for any chumra that hampers a person's observance - or which has a negative effect on those around them. – yoel Aug 09 '12 at 03:02
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1I'm not arguing for or against any position here. But suppose the issue is believing in a dead mashiach, and suppose someone convincingly argues (with sources!) that to do so invalidates one's conversion, then wouldn't Breslov abide by that position? If so, then I'm not sure what your answer adds to the discussion; you would just be saying that Breslov would accept or reject the conversions based on if they think it is invalid or not. – Double AA Aug 09 '12 at 03:07
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@DoubleAA it would seem, then, that at least a large part of this question is really simply whether or not such a belief is kefira. – yoel Aug 09 '12 at 03:10
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Yes absolutely (assuming that is the issue the OP had heard about; he doesn't specify). It also means that I and other mods will keep a close eye on the discussion here to ensure it stays...civil. – Double AA Aug 09 '12 at 03:12
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1@DoubleAA cant argue with that! I'm actually surprised that this question isn't, then, a duplicate. – yoel Aug 09 '12 at 03:22
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@HodofHod it may be that there are individual shluchim that will, but as a matter of policy the Lubavitcher rebbe ztz'l certainly cautioned shluchim not to get involved with geirus. – yoel Aug 29 '12 at 02:43
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@ShmuelBrin Actually, looking back, I realized I was a lot more certain then than now. I knew certain Rabbonim have been involved with the geirus process very closely, but I don't know if they were actually on the beis din for the geirus itself. That said, I'm deleting my previous comments, as they are almost certainly wrong. – HodofHod Mar 11 '13 at 19:12
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Perhaps this answer should be updated. I don't know Yoel's source, but I personally know of multiple people who converted through Chabad batei din. A few were from south America (I believe from argentina andchile) and a couple were from the former Soviet Union (I think Georgia). This is definitely a very relevant question, especially since some of the av beis din signed on a statement of principles stating that the "rebbe is still alive in a physical body as it is obvious and clear" among other points. They also were joined by rabbanim from tzfas i.e. ad"b"or Chabad. It's a real question. – Binyomin May 03 '20 at 16:50
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I really feel for what you are going through right now. It is unfortunate but there are politics that surround even this issue at times. My suggestion is to work with your sponsoring rav and find the least controversial beis din as possible. I would suggest looking into what ou, young israel, and aish have to offer as far as the conversion process. After your gerus what hashkafah and community to chose to be a part of is up to you and isn't relevant to the ritual of the conversion process. There are three main components for conversion and only three that matter... 1.acceptance of all of the mitzvas and fundamental beliefs (13 principles of faith) 2. mikvah and 3. bris milah (or hatfas hadam habris). May G-d almighty bless you in your journey.
Dude
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Your Chabad rav likely makes a splendid sponsor, though in USA you should approach RCA/BDA beis din. Then you should be assured of no question regarding Chabad involvement in your gerus. All the best to you!
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[Speculation:] I do not believe you would have a problem with Breslov, since Chabad and Breslov are pretty close.
Satmar though, I don't know. There is unfortunately animosity there.
There is also animosity between Chabad and followers of Rav Shach.
Aside from any Halachic issues that may or may not exist (and that depends on whom you ask - if you ask followers of Rav Shach or Satmar they might tell you it is Halachic; if you ask followers of Chabad they might tell you it's not) there are also, unfortunately, politics at play dating back to a controversy between Chabad and Rav Shach in the knesset in 1988 relating to many issues, including peace and giving away land). Unfortunately, political and ideological disagreements aren't any easier to overcome than religious disagreements.
Yehi Ratzon (May it be G-'d will) that there should be peace between Jews even when we don't agree.
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2If you want to claim it isn't halacha based against those claim it is, you should really back it up with a source. – Double AA Aug 08 '12 at 11:26
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1It is not true that Chabad opposed Rav Shach, but that he opposed Chabad, and his opposition to Chabad was one of the reasons that he split from Agudas Yisroel and formed Degel haTorah. – Shimon bM Aug 08 '12 at 11:29
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1@DoubleAA Despite their claims that they oppose it on halachic grounds, the truth is that it's entirely political. If you think source for a topic like this even exists you are mistaken. This topic is full of fire and hate. No matter what source you find someone else will dispute it. My goal was to give a small amount of background on what's going on. This is NOT a halachic question. This is a fight. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 11:38
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@Ariel If you think that no sourced answers can be given and that the question will promote extended argument and discussion then flag (or vote -- rep permitting) to close as Not Constructive. I for one am not giving up hope for civility on this site so soon. And BTW background information should be sourced too; I imagine it would be relatively uncontroversial history. – Double AA Aug 08 '12 at 11:43
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@DoubleAA I have no access to do that, but yes I do think that. But he asked a question and deserves an answer - at least he should know something about what's going on. Personally I think there will be civility here (so you don't need to close the question). But if you try to find sources you will not find civility. I pray that over the years the fires will fade and this fight will be forgotten - and the fires do (to me) seem to be fading, but maybe it's because I am not in Israel. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 11:47
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@Ariel He only deserves an answer on this site if the question is one that deserves to remain open (that was almost a tautology!). – Double AA Aug 08 '12 at 11:49
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@Ariel Contrary to what you wrote, the claim made by the questioner did not originate with Rav Shach, but with Prof David Berger of Yeshiva University. Similar sentiments are found elsewhere, but none so extreme as to suggest that converts who are admitted by a Chabad bet din are not to be considered Jews. – Shimon bM Aug 08 '12 at 11:49
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1@ShimonbM My primary source was living in Israel during the height of these fights. And I am not happy with Rav Shach for starting them, because despite his claim that his views were "for the sake of heaven" the actual results were terrible. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 11:56
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1@ShimonbM "but none so extreme...not to be considered Jews" True, except with for those of Rav Shach who did in fact say so. And I really hope that such views no longer exist, or at least are limited to just a few. I have no issue with people criticizing Messianism. Even within Chabad it receives severe criticism. Yehi Ratzon that there should be peace between Jews even when they don't agree. – Ariel Aug 08 '12 at 12:01
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@Ariel I have very little respect for Rav Shach, but he is Rav Shach nonetheless. I have tremendous respect for his teachers, such that I cannot even express. I do not agree with his opinions on Chabad (as I do not agree with his opinions on a host of issues), but reiterate that he was not the one to voice this particular libel.
In any case, I was not the one to give you -1. I do not like your tone, but I agree with your sentiment.
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1" This topic is bringing back some bad memories." Then, in my opinion, if you cannot remove bias from your answer, you should not be engaged in this topic. It's clearly unhealthy for you, and it is not helping the OP. Your answer contains useful information and is salvageable, but please allow an independent party to edit it. – Seth J Aug 08 '12 at 13:20
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There's no such community as "followers of Rav Shach". Rav Shach zt"l passed away many years ago, and other distinguished Rabbis, including Rav Elyashiv and ylt"a Rav Shteinman took his place as the main leaders of the Litvish community in E"Y. – Shraga Dec 31 '12 at 09:25
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@Ger I am not sure exactly how to put this. Judaism is not chassidus under any brand. One first has to be 'Jewish' and only then may one become a chasid. One cant be a chasid first. I am not a chasid and most chasidim today are only that in name. So if all you want is to become a chasid of today I would not call that geirus. – preferred May 26 '14 at 20:11