5

In this article regarding the Shabbat Challah loaves, The Shmirat Shabbat KeHilchata (vol. II 55:5) is quoted as saying:

The loaves must each be at least the size of an olive

Normally, the size of the food being eaten does not matter when making a preceding blessing (see here, for example). The only requirement is that, in order to make an after-blessing, one must eat the required amount within a set time-period (see here, for example)

I don't have access to the Shmirat Shabbat KeHilchata, and I'm looking for sources and an explanation why the loaves used on Shabbat have a minimum size requirement.

Menachem
  • 44,362
  • 6
  • 127
  • 247
  • 2
    I'm thinking you may want to take a look at the original Hebrew if you can get it. Check Hebrewbooks. – Seth J Jul 26 '12 at 04:52
  • @SethJ: I haven't found Shmirat Shabat Kehilchata anywhere online yet, and I have no access to the original sefer. – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 06:21
  • @SethJ Menachem, I have transcribed the english text in my answer. – Ariel Jul 26 '12 at 06:32
  • -1; IMHO, I think that if a kezayit is not enough to induce oneg shabbat, a person has not fulfilled their obligation of a seudah. – Adam Mosheh Aug 12 '12 at 20:36
  • 3
    @AdamMosheh: Thanks for explaining your reason for downvoting. However, I'm not sure I understand it. You seem to be addressing something different to my question. Regardless of whether the person is satisfied with a kezayit, the Sh"Sh"K is saying that the challah rolls used when making the Hamotzie blessing should be at least a Kezayit. I'm asking why. Your response seems to be that it is not a good question because a person must eat until he is satisfied on Shabbat. Even if that is the case, why couldn't he have a bunch of small rolls until he is satiated? – Menachem Aug 12 '12 at 22:09

2 Answers2

5

The minimum shiur to fulfill the mitzva of eating a seuda on Shabbos is a kezayis O Ch 271 MB [35].

That means that you must have one loaf of at least a kezayit. The second loaf comes for the (separate) obligation of lechem mishneh.

ADDITION: The sources quoted by the Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchoso are:

  1. Kaf Hachaim 274 sk 8 says that in בית מנוחה או׳ י״ב‏ it says that loaves less than a kezayis are alright for Lechem Mishneh but the Kaf Hachaim (of R' Chaim Pelaji) 36:44 does not allow it even if you have 12 loaves like that. He also quotes the ד) ,פתה״ד) (Petach HaDvir) who agrees with the Kaf Hachaim.

  2. Rivevos Efraim 1 (204). He quotes as follows:

    • Sdei Chemed (Ma'arechet Lamed, Klal 27) brings:
      • Chikrei Lev – doubtful
      • Beis Menucha - ok
      • Pesach HaDvir – is machmir but it does work bedieved
    • Rabbi Y Bernstein (?) – one should be concerned for those who who do not allow it; even if he could make up the kezayis with other pieces of bread
    • Rav Ch Kanievsky wrote to him that “מסתבר שצריך כזית”. He recommends studying שאלי ציון part 1 (9) (not on Hebrewbooks.com).

CYLOR!

Menachem
  • 44,362
  • 6
  • 127
  • 247
Avrohom Yitzchok
  • 47,518
  • 8
  • 47
  • 131
  • 4
    I don't follow. Couldn't you have two loaves each a half zayit, and eat both of them? – Double AA Jul 26 '12 at 15:15
  • 1
    As @DoubleAA pointed out, that is just how much you have to eat. That applies during the week as well. It doesn't say that the loaves you're making a blessing on have to have a minimum size, just that you have to eat a minimum amount ---- Also, look in Shaar HaTzion 43, where he says that it looks like one has to eat the volume of an egg to fulfill the mitzva of seudat shabbat. – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 22:47
  • I had found the Petach Devir from the Kaf HaChaim http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7976&st=&pgnum=187 but I wasn't able to understand his argument – Double AA Jul 27 '12 at 14:21
  • Avrohom Yitzchok, thanks for the additional information and sources! – Seth J Jul 27 '12 at 14:39
  • 1
    @DoubleAA From what I could see the Petach Dvir that you quoted is concerned with joining two “half breads” when he does not have a whole loaf. I suggest the reference is to here where he says that it is poshut that you cannot use bread less than a kezayit because (my translation) it is “not bread as far as the brocho of hamotzi is concerned and as far as doing your duty of eating matzo on Pesach”. (!) I haven’t been able to decipher the rest now. – Avrohom Yitzchok Jul 27 '12 at 16:00
  • Hmm odd. We do say a hamotzi on less than a kezayit in general IIUC – Double AA Jul 27 '12 at 16:28
  • The Sha'alei Tzion is probably the Sha'alot U'Teshuvot by http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%93%D7%91_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A8_%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%91 – Menachem Jul 27 '12 at 20:33
  • @DoubleAA: That's exactly what the Beit Menucha says. – Menachem Jul 27 '12 at 20:34
  • I was told by Rabbi Reuven Lauffer of Ohr Somayach that each loaf must be a minimum of 24 grams, but he didn't bring sources. That's smaller than some opinions on the size of a kezayit; I don't know if he holds to a smaller kezayit or if something else is going on. – Monica Cellio Jul 27 '12 at 21:03
1

Someone told me that his father taught him that in order to wash, the bread must be at least the size of an egg. I asked him for sources but he didn't have any, so neither do I.

But maybe someone here has heard this too.

From the English, volume 3 (not 2):

One should make a point of taking, for lechem mishneh, loaves which are each at least a ka-zayith in size.

Note the change from "must" to "make a point of".

Ariel
  • 5,159
  • 14
  • 29
  • 1
    This is really a separate question, rather than an answer to this one. That being said, one must always wash, but in order to make a blessing on the washing, one must eat at least 2 olive-size worth of bread (i.e. the size of an egg) See "Seder Netilat Yadayim Le'Seuda" in the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Halacha 18: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25072&pgnum=664 -- see here for an explanation (Orach Chaim 158:2) http://chabadlibrary.org/books/adhaz/sh/sh1/13/158/2.htm – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 06:33
  • @Menachem Thanks! Sorry I couldn't answer your question, but I did get an answer to mine :) (I've always wondered why.) – Ariel Jul 26 '12 at 06:36
  • Is it still 55:5 in volume three, or is it somewhere else? Also, is there any more information given, such as sources or reasons? – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 06:37
  • @Menachem Yes, still 55:5, there are no sources (at all), and I've transcribed it exactly. It continues with a discussion of making sure there is enough for everyone. – Ariel Jul 26 '12 at 06:40
  • @Menachem re "one must always wash, but in order to make a blessing on the washing, one must eat at least 2 olive-size worth of bread (i.e. the size of an egg)": I think this is a machlokes haacharonim. IIRC MB rules as you said but others hold one need not wash (or bless) except for a olive's size or two. – msh210 Jul 26 '12 at 15:54
  • (Not to mention the machloket rishonim about how many olives make up an egg. Why not just say egg instead of 2 olives?) – Double AA Jul 26 '12 at 16:01
  • 1
    @DoubleAA: I should have. In fact, that's what is says in the Shulchan Aruch I linked to. – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 22:36
  • 1
    @msh210: The second Shulchan Aruch HaRav I linked to above (158:2) says that the reason we wash without a blessing is because some say that there is no need to wash if one is eating less than an egg size piece. See a discussion on this in the Ketzos Hashulchan, Badei HaShulchan 36:4, who brings the Beit Yosef who quotes the Rokeach that one should wash without a blessing, and explains why the Shulchan Aruch HaRav gives a different reason than the Beit Yosef. http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7721&pgnum=34 -- can you point out any Acharonim who say one need not wash at all? – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 22:46
  • @Menachem Are you looking for achronim that say no need to wash at all on less than a zayit or less than a beitza? – Double AA Jul 26 '12 at 23:52
  • @DoubleAA: msh210 wrote: IIRC MB rules as you said but others hold one need not wash (or bless) except for a olive's size or two. I'm looking for acharonim who say that you do not need to wash at all. (i.e. after the Beit Yosef brought the Rokeach and said that one should wash without a blessing, is there anyone who disagrees and says you do not need to was at all.) – Menachem Jul 26 '12 at 23:59
  • 2
    @Menachem The Mishna Berura quotes the Bach, Taz, Gra, Birkei Yosef, and Rashbatz who hold that no washing at all is necessary on less than an olive. I haven't checked those inside. The Aruch Hashulchan notes that the common practice is not to wash on less than an olive in accordance with the above cited opinions. – Double AA Jul 27 '12 at 00:37