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According to the Maharam M'Rotenberg (explained in this answer) martyrs don't feel the pain of death. How then can we understand these following medrashim?

When R' Chanina ben Tradyoin was being burned alive he requested that they remove the wet towels which were prolonging his death. This would show that he was indeed in pain. In addition, when R' Akiva was being tortured to death with iron combs being raked across his skin, his Talmidim asked him how he could concentrate on the Shema. Again this shows that he was in pain. See Gemara Avodah Zarah 18a and the last page of this pdf version of Kinois. Don't both of these show that they do indeed feel pain?

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Yehuda
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    The answer to that previous post is an excellent answer, but it's not an excellent source. If you look at it in situ, you'll see that it's a truncated snippet from a responsum by the Maharam. Until somebody is able to present the entire responsum, this small section of it is meaningless. Who says that there's necessarily any contradiction at all? Or that the Maharam didn't resolve it himself? – Shimon bM Jul 11 '12 at 22:16
  • Could be, but I had heard the question before I knew the Maharam. I had heard it a long time ago without any additions! – Yehuda Jul 11 '12 at 22:42
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    Yes, but you didn't hear the question before the Maharam heard it, and "heard it" isn't a source. I'm not voting your question down or anything, I'm just not convinced that there is one until somebody can provide a proper source that demonstrates that there is. A section taken out of context from a responsum that I don't have access to will sit better with me when I've seen the rest of it. – Shimon bM Jul 11 '12 at 23:44
  • @ShimonbM each to their own. For me, Mesorah is good enough! – Yehuda Jul 12 '12 at 11:00
  • Yehuda I bet @ShimonbM just doesn't think that your having heard something once constitutes a Mesorah. I happen to agree. – Double AA Jul 12 '12 at 20:25
  • @DoubleAA I dont see that knowing anymore context can get you around this passage. But Kshem Shepartzufeiehm Shovois, Kach Ein Dayoisayhem Shovois! – Yehuda Jul 12 '12 at 21:30
  • @Yehuda - Could you please cite that? Some of us are missing the reference. – Adam Mosheh Jul 13 '12 at 14:24
  • @AdamMoshe which reference? this? As no two faces are similar, so too no two minds are similar – Yehuda Jul 13 '12 at 14:34
  • @DoubleAA, I'm normally a stickler with respecting others' transliteration schemes, but he was inconsistent (see his spelling of "Avodah Zarah"), so I was attempting to make them both consistent (as well as more easily searchable by going with the non-oi spelling). – Seth J Jul 13 '12 at 15:05
  • @SethJ Ad sheyavoi hashelishi http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/17657/how-to-reconcile-conflicting-statements-on-martyrs-feeling-pain#comment40824_17657. – Double AA Jul 13 '12 at 17:19
  • @DoubleAA, but see more conflicting usage here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12880/5 – Seth J Jul 13 '12 at 17:50

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The kina you're referring to was written to mourn for people who died al kiddush Hashem (I don't think we learn halakha or agadah from kinot). The source in A"Z 18a was written, again, to mourn for martyrs who had already died. We can feel bad for the suffering of those who died and talk about their misery.

The Maharam was writing during horrible pogroms in the 1200s Germany. He may have been writing in part to comfort those whose loved ones died al kiddush Hashem and in part to discourage others from effectively committing suicide. I honestly think that the Maharam realized that were martyrdom glorified, he'd lose everyone in the community since the Germans were happy to kill lots of Jews.

It's the same way that we say that suicides can't be buried, but we exclude everyone who's committed suicide assuming they've repented or were sick.

Charles Koppelman
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  • likidush hashem or al kiddush hashem? – Double AA Jul 12 '12 at 00:57
  • how does this answer anything? – Yehuda Jul 12 '12 at 12:39
  • @Yehuda I guess the summary of this is: Where's the contradiction? The Maharam was making a political/policy statement and the others are telling stories. Neither is being 100% literal. – Charles Koppelman Jul 12 '12 at 15:02
  • @DoubleAA point taken. and fixed. – Charles Koppelman Jul 12 '12 at 20:14
  • @CharlesKoppelman I wasn't saying it was wrong. (Maybe it is grammatically, I don't know.) I just never heard it your way. – Double AA Jul 12 '12 at 20:23
  • related: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/16346/759 – Double AA Jul 12 '12 at 20:28
  • @Yehuda, the question is how to reconcile the two conflicting ideas. The answer addresses the conflict by saying that one is meant to give hope and inspiration to the those in fear of future (and current) persecution, including torture and death, by telling them not to fear the pain of martyrdom and to inspire faith and perseverance. The stories indicating that they do feel pain are part of our historical record that these events happened, so there is no need to sugarcoat the loss. On the contrary, it also serves to inspire future generations by showing how much worse it was for others. – Seth J Jul 13 '12 at 13:33
  • @SethJ do you mean that the Maharam didnt really believe it but said anyway to comfort his people? – Yehuda Jul 13 '12 at 13:40
  • @Yehuda, I didn't post this answer. I'm interpreting Charles Koppelman's answer to try to better explain it since you asked how it answers the question. If I had to guess, I would say Charles probably is suggesting that, whether or not the Maharam was "just trying to comfort his people", he was possibly saying something similar to what you said - that the actual death isn't painful, even though the torture is. – Seth J Jul 13 '12 at 13:44
  • @SethJ has a funny was of saying it but I hear. Have a good Shabbos! – Yehuda Jul 13 '12 at 13:50
  • @DoubleAA- Probably not likidush hashem but rather lekadeish hashem. But I heard a few years ago (when I was studying at Yeshivat Lev Hatorah) from Rabbi Daniel Hartstein (who learned from Rav Ahron Soloveichik ZT'L) that the correct bracha is actually "baruch ... asher kideshanu ... lekadeish et shmo barabim," similar to the paragraph in the morning prayers after "ashreinu." – Adam Mosheh Jul 13 '12 at 14:48
  • @Yehuda - Shabbat shalom! – Adam Mosheh Jul 13 '12 at 14:52
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I would like to suggest that the Maharam is talking about people being thrown in the fire where death is almost instantaneous and is part of the killing. However pain of torture leading up to death is not included in the dying Al Kiddush Hashem (martyrdom) and is therefore painful.

Seth J
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Yehuda
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