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Dentists often recommend that teenagers have their wisdom teeth extracted to avoid future problems. However, the medical need for these extractions is unclear at best. Is removing teeth without medical necessity a violation of chavala/chovel b'atzmo? What about in cases where it would definitely improve the patient's dental health, though not save his life?

msh210
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SAH
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  • see http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/10669/1592 –  Jun 07 '12 at 23:03
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    Two points: 1.) Some dentists are overzealous about removing wisdom teeth, just like some doctors are overzealous about removing tonsils. However, there is often a risk of complications if not extracted (such as infection secondary to impaction) when the jaw is too small to accommodate the tooth or when x-rays show an unerupted tooth growing at a very oblique angle (some of these cases end in complications, and could be difficult to remedy if extraction is not done early). 2.) The gemara even permitted chovel b'atzmo for bloodletting, which was considered beneficial but not necessary. – Fred Jun 07 '12 at 23:49
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    CYLDDS......... – Seth J Oct 10 '13 at 12:18

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The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 420:31) rules that you don't have permission to hit yourself, but you are nevertheless patur. This is actually a machlokes rishonim: Tosafos (Shevuos 27a ד"ה אביא) rules that it is permissible while Rambam (Chovel UMazik 5:1) rule sthat it is forbidden.

Since it is a safek sfeika, I would think that it should be allowed to do it. (Safek #1: Maybe the halachah is really like the view that you are allowed to hit yourself. Safek #2: Even if you aren't allowed to hit yourself, maybe you are in this case, because it is possible that there is a medical need to do it.)

b a
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  • Do you have any evidence that there is a safek what the halacha is? It seems we paskin like the rambam. – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 00:55
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    We do pasken like the Rambam, but Tosafos still disagree, which makes it a safek. – b a Jun 08 '12 at 00:55
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    Every machloket rishonim is a safek? That's a little extreme. Would you say that about chiyuvei asei? What about when it's lekula? – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 00:56
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    There is a rishon (the Bahag) who says that counting the omer is one mitzvah for all 49 nights, and the remainder of rishonim agree that each night is a separate mitzvah. The Shulchan Aruch rules that if someone doesn't remember if he skipped a night of counting the omer, he can count the remaining nights with a brachah. The Mishnah Brurah (489:38) explains that it is because of safek sfeika. Safek #1: Maybe he did count the omer. Safek #2: Maybe halachah is like the remainder of rishonim that each night is a separate mitzvah. That is a machlokes rishonim that the MB treats as a safek. – b a Jun 08 '12 at 01:21
  • Everyone agrees there are machlokot that we don't paskin and rather leave as safek, but the vast majority of the time we do paskin. It's like the difference between the gemara concluding "Teiku" and "VeHilchita KeRav X". To say that any machloket is a pure safek is, well, madness and probably kefira as it rejects the authority of the mesorah to paskin! In this case it seems clear we paskin like the Rambam and you'd have to bring me evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise. – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 06:01
  • @DoubleAA "To say that any machloket is a pure safek is, well, madness and probably kefira."

    Which of the Rambam's thirteen rules does it violate?

    I will give you another example. The Shulchan Aruch rules that mitzvos tzrichos kavanah (OC 60:4). Concerning the omer, we rule (489:4) that if you said "today is the "x"th day of the omer" to your friend during bein hashmashos without actively intending to fulfill your obligation, you nevertheless may have fulfilled your obligation lemaan de'amar mitzvos tzrichos kavanah (MB s"k 26).

     – b a Jun 08 '12 at 13:56
  • Maybe number 8 because psak is part of the definition of Torah. Furthermore I don't know why you keep quoting examples. I agree such examples exist. I'm just saying the vast majority of cases we do paskin. If you can show me why you might think we paskin like Tosfot above then we have what to talk about. Until then, you can't make a safek out of a psak. – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 14:20
  • I have given you two examples already, although I have not found anywhere that explicitly says that I am right. But if you think you are right, either give me a source that says so explicitly or give me an example where we overlook a daas yachid and DON'T make it a safeik sfeika. – b a Jun 08 '12 at 14:23
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    Well, if I'm not sure how I say a bracha on my tefillin if it's only a safek that rashi is right. I don't know how I can do melacha on Friday afternoon 15 minutes before astronomical sunset if maybe the Yerei'im is right, etc. Do I really need to give you these examples? You seem more than capable of noticing that there is no way every machloket is a safek. – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 15:01
  • You are correct. I didn't think of that. Of course, Chabad is machmir with RT tefilin and some do follow the S' Yereim, but I now wonder why we count some machlokos as safek and some as not.

    It is certainly not kefirah, though.

     – b a Jun 08 '12 at 20:29
  • Like I said, it's like the difference between the gemara concluding "Teiku" and "VeHilchita KeRav X", or when the Shulchan Aruch quotes Yesh Omrim and sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes Rabbis paskin and sometimes they leave it in doubt, possibly depending on how sure they are and what the different precedents are. In any given instance we can argue which applies, but to reject that either notion exists at all is to reject a very central part of the way Torah has, does and always will work. – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 20:55
  • (BTW All my examples before are not even considering all the problems that would come up if you tried treating every argument in the Mishna as a safek!) – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 20:57
  • No one proposed that, because the Gemara was accepted by all of Israel, and so we can't change from the ruling of the Gemara. However, no single one of the rishonim was accepted by all of Israel. – b a Jun 08 '12 at 20:59
  • I don't know what 'all of Israel' has to do with it. Different communities accepted different Rabbis' psakim over time. Those are the psakim they have to follow. Simple as that. Halacha KeVatrai. – Double AA Jun 08 '12 at 21:05
  • See this. – b a Jun 08 '12 at 21:30
  • I think we are discussing two different questions: you are discussing which opinions are valid ones for a posek to choose from (answer: basically anything post Rav Ashi). I am discussing how any individual relates to the psak he is given (answer: betorat vadai). I agree that a posek can theoretically pick anything, but he uses his logic, his halchik intuition, and his received tradition from his teachers regarding how to properly analyze a situation and which opinions to give more weight to in picking his psak which may be... – Double AA Jun 10 '12 at 21:14
  • ...one opinion lechumra and lekula, it may be a chumra for two and it may be a chumra for three; but once he gives it, it is psak halacha and we hold of it. – Double AA Jun 10 '12 at 21:14