11

The Rambam says that the Shchita of a Mumar for one aveira is Kosher, just that there needs to be a Shochet who will check his knife before he shechts (as one can assume that he won't work too hard to make the knife clean). The only debate in the Gemara is if a Mumar Lechol hatorah kula's shechita is kosher.

So why are many people so careful about the Yiras Shamayim of the Shochet? I know people who will only eat Chassidisher Shchita, some will only eat meat that was shechted by Shochtim from their Chassidus, some will not eat meat outside their house (while they will eat other products), etc. These are people that will eat national hashgachos for most items.

These people can't consider non-Chassidim to be like a mumar lechol Hatorah as if they were, they couldn't rely on their Hashgachos at all (and wouldn't be able to eat anything with an O-U, etc.)

EDIT

I am looking for sources (such as, Shulchan Aruch demands ..., Simla Chadasha demands etc.)

  • 2
    Are you sure the distinctions of the various chassiduts' shechita productions are only based on their views on their adherents' special fear of Heaven? Wouldn't some of them subscribe to different technical stringencies than others? – Isaac Moses Mar 15 '12 at 18:29
  • 4
    The Rambam wasn't a chossid ;) – yitznewton Mar 15 '12 at 19:33
  • @IsaacMoses or even other more personal reasons, with little to do with actual kashrut... Politics, etc. "I don't want to give him my business!" – AviD Mar 18 '12 at 10:15
  • 1
    @AviD Those people wouldn't eat anything of the other parties hechsher. Yet, there are many people who eat other's bread, oil, wine, and not meat. – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 18 '12 at 17:29
  • The gra wasn't a chossid. does that make him a mumar ledavar echad? Neither was R Moshe Feinstein (and many people in between). Does that mean that his yiras shamayim or shmiras torah umitzvos was less any than your average chabad shochet? – Hahu Gavra Mar 19 '12 at 01:08
  • 2
    @HahuGavra I am asking why people only eat Chassidishe Shchita. The reason I heard is because a Shochet has to have more Yiras Shamayim (and Chassidim have more Yiras Shamayim). I am not asking if that is right (whether only chassidim have Yiras Shamayim) but even leshitoseihem (that they are more Yorei Shamayim), why be extra makpid on Shechita when the Rambam (and the Shulchan Aruch/Rama) said that even a Mumar Ledavar Echad is kosher. In other words, it's a Kal Vachomer. If a mumar's Shechita is kosher, all the more so one of a normal "not-chassidic" Jew. – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 19 '12 at 20:31
  • chassdim eat o-u at the rebbes tish they serve mostly fresca and sometimes other sodas bearing o-u's –  Jul 25 '13 at 20:44
  • see this packet, specifically page 26 and on http://www.col.org.il/pics/inbox/7163202_6334606.pdf – termsofservice Apr 28 '14 at 01:34
  • @AmHaaretzGamurMideoraysa check the above link – termsofservice Apr 28 '14 at 02:48

5 Answers5

8

My rebbi in הלכות שחיטה told me that chassidishe שחיטה used to mean that the שוחט had special intent to release the גלגול in the animal and/or to release the inherent spark נצוצות that are in every thing, but eventually that knowledge got lost even to the חסידים (as far as most people know), and now it is only a remembrance to that earlier time.

MTL
  • 19,073
  • 4
  • 51
  • 161
  • Hi Shokhet, welcome to Mi Yodeya! You've chosen an interesting way to transliterate the ח in שוחט. Take a look at our 31 other questions tagged [tag:slaughter-shochet-shecht] which you might find interesting. Hope to see you around :) – Double AA Apr 28 '14 at 00:52
  • @DoubleAA Thanks, I think I will. Shokhet is also a last name, though not mine...I thought it would stand out! See you around ;) – MTL Apr 28 '14 at 15:16
6

The technicalities of shechitah create a very fine line between a kosher shechitah and one that results in neveila meat. For example, applying too much downward pressure on the knife, or pausing during the procedure, can totally invalidate the shechitah. It is basically the shochet's call as to whether the necessary parameters were fulfilled. However, the shochet obviously has a bias to pronounce his work kosher, especially in large commercial productions where a high failure rate could cost him his job. It requires a certain amount of Yiras Shamayim on the shochet's part to make an honest assessment of his shechitah. Hence the focus on a shochet's affiliation, which makes people more comfortable about his probable level of Yiras Shomayim. (Whether this is justified or not is a separate issue.) Additionally, as mentioned by Issac Moses, customs vary (sometimes in a significant ways) from community to community.

Dave
  • 21,071
  • 3
  • 53
  • 104
  • In addition to all said above is the Historical Perspective. When Chassidic communities left the shtetel and lives close together with other groups in NYC and Israel, the choice of supporting the Parnasah of their members versus another qualified individual stood. In regards to Chabad specifically, the Shochetim and Bodkim are required to learn Chassidus prior to working. –  Mar 15 '12 at 18:55
  • @mochinrechavim That's the question, why aren't normal Mashgichim required to learn Chassidus? – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 19:02
  • So how did Yehoshafat eat Achav's food? (one can assume that Achav wasn't too Chassidish) – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 19:03
  • Moreover, why isn't the Rambam/Mishna/Gemara/and AFAIK Shulchan Aruch choshesh for this possibility? – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 19:14
  • @AmHaaretzGamurMideoraysa Chabad is the only group that I am aware of that requires the learning of Chassidus before Shechita. There are Lubavitch Hekshurs that have non Lubavitch Shechita and those Satmar, Breslov, etc are learning Tanya or other Chassidus before Shechita. The "Shor HaBor" label on Lubavitch meat means that only Lubavitcher Shochtim were used. Other requirements for a Shochet in Chassidish and definitely Chabad is an untouched beard. (No trimming) In Chabad circles the wife of the Shochet is also checked for Yiras Shamayim. I don't have an answer for outside Chabad. –  Mar 15 '12 at 19:18
  • 1
    @mochinrechavim My question is that the Rambam says that a Shochet has the same requirements as a mashgiach (except when sharpening the knife). So why will Lubavitchers eat food which was supervised by people who don't learn Chassidus while they won't eat the meat shechted by a shochet who doesn't learn Chassidus? – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 19:21
  • Many Chassidic groups will not eat from big mainstream hekshurs. A whole books could be written about this discussion. Is the Rambam halacha l'maseh? –  Mar 15 '12 at 19:55
  • @mochinrechavim Many in the US will eat oil under the OU, OK, etc. The ones that don't do it because of standards (definition of bishul yisrael, what temperature to Kosher,etc). – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 18 '12 at 17:33
6

While I'm late to this discussion, I'd like to straighten out and clarify the issues involved. There are a number of matters here:

1) Yiras Shamayim. This requirement in a shochet predates chasidism by a long time, and is quite mainstream. Here is a quote from Shulchan Aruch (YD 18:17):

טבח שלא הראה סכינו לחכם (ונמצאת יפה), היו מנדין אותו. ואם נמצאת פגומה, מנדין אותו ומעבירין אותו. ובנמצאת יפה, יכול החכם למחול ואין צריך לנדותו. והאידנא נהגו למנות אנשים ידועים על השחיטה והבדיקה, ולהם מחלו חכמים כבודם, כי הם זהירים וזריזים, והרבה צריך ישוב הדעת ויראת שמים לבדיקת הסכין, הלא תראה כי יבדוק אדם פעמים שלש ולא ירגיש בפגימה דקה ואחר כך ימצאנה כי הכין לבו באחרונה, ובחינת חוש המישוש כפי כוונת הלב.

See also here.

2) So-called chasidic shechita. This originally was a question of forged vs. molten steel. Rabbis in the new chasidic community maintained that forged steel was unfit and that molten steel was superior, while mitnagdim and their Rabbis took great offense at the suggestion. Thus, chasidim had to rely on known chasidic shochtim if they wanted to adhere to the chasidic standard. This detail is no longer relevant as this standard has long become mainstream. See here for a historic overview.

3) Avoiding non-chasidic shechita. Interestingly, the baal ha'Tanya, probably the first authority to go on record and advocate extensively for the so-called chasidic knives, categorically asserts that it would be unthinkable to invalidate 'traditional' shechita on this basis (see previous link):

אם לפעמים מסובים בסעודת מצוה עם אנשי עירם, חלילה לפרוש מהם להחזיקם כאוכלי נבלות ח"ו, הס מלהזכיר, ומעודי לא נזהרתי מהכלים אף מבני יומן.‏

Also:

מ"ש כבוד תורתם שנאמר להם בשמי על שחיטה שלהם שאינה בכשרות ח"ו, חלילה חלילה לי להוציא דבה על עם ה' רבבות אלפי ישראל, ונאמן עלי אבא שבשמים, וגם יעידו עלי כל המקורבים אלי, כי אינני נזהר מעולם מכלים אפילו הם בני יומן.‏

Of course, note the emphasis in the first letter on the 'occasional'.

4) Sticking to one's community. I imagine the issue here is not specifically a chasidic one at all. To oversimplify: communities used to be defined by geography. Jews living in X were X, those living in Y were Y. Every city had its demographics, its Rabbinate, and its shechita. With the advent of chasidism certain cities may have split in half, but the geographic boundaries persisted. This meant that a given city's shechita (or shechitos) belonged to, and was controlled by, solely itself/ves. If someone from 'out of town' would attempt to encroach on any community's shechita, he would be deemed an interloper, a מסיג גבול, and be excommunicated and run out of town. Today, many Jews, especially chasidim, still define themselves by European geography, and organize their communities in similar fashion. Thus, sticking to one's own community's shechita is more of an expression of a protective, exclusionary sentiment than a purely religious concern about kashrut.

ADDITION: 5) Difference between shechita and ordinary hashgacha. Here are my thoughts: a) The notion of Chasidic/community kashrus originated in Europe when the only kashrus job was shechita; applying the yiras shamayim/community argument here should necessitate similar standards for hashgacha, but perhaps this is an example of the original logic being abandoned and forgotten when the reality changes. b1) In terms of yiras shamayim, Shechita is the only instance where the act itself establishes the kashrus, whereas one could argue that all other areas of hashgacha are more about ensuring the lack of something unkosher occurring; those spiritually inclined could therefore argue that the impact of the shochet on the souls of those eating his food is profound to a much greater degree than anyone else involved in food production. b2) The laws arising every day in the slaughterhouse are more complex and costly than those typically arising in other areas of food production. b3) There may be certain chumros unique to shechita unique to each community as opposed to other areas of kashrus. c) Chasidic communities large enough to maintain their own shechita usually operate their own hechsher as well, and thus it’s possible that these communities do in fact tend to rely on their own kashrus where essential foodstuffs are concerned. d) Operating purely based on the ‘community’ explanation, one could argue that the same right that grants each community the power to preserve the strength of its shechita, allows for the relaxation of that power should they so desire it; thus, these communities apparently decided to maintain their grasp on shechita but willfully chose to allow for other kashrus powers to overlap with theirs where practically necessitated.

Bar Uryan
  • 494
  • 4
  • 9
0

my father opened up a butcher store on 13th avenue in boro park called glatt pack in 1971. He chose the ou meat from the cross brothers slaugterhouse in pa. the ou supplied the shochtim and they supplied ou glatt as well as not glatt. They had no pressure to call an animal glatt. In response to this the term chassidah shecita was popularized.

  • 1
    Welcome to MiYodeya Yitzchok. Since MY is different from other sites you might be used to, see here for a guide which might help understand the site. Also please consider registering your account, to enable more site features, including voting. Hope to see you around! – mbloch May 20 '18 at 17:53
-3

Chasidic shechita is based on the sharpness of the knife.

yoel
  • 7,221
  • 29
  • 59
  • 2
    Not anymore - http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/6732/1268 – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 18:55
  • @AmHaaretzGamurMideoraysa so everybody does shechita according to the Chasidish standard today? Interesting. – yoel Mar 15 '12 at 18:58
  • 1
    This answer does not deserve negative voting. While todays standards of shechita have embraced stainless steel blades, it is a Chassidic Invention that resulting in an excommunication being issued by the Misnagdim. –  Mar 15 '12 at 19:02
  • @mochinrechavim fine, but practically all current Shochtim will use steel blades. So why can't Chassidim eat from a non-Chossid's shchita if he uses steel knives? – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 19:05
  • 1
    @mochinrechavim I strongly suspect that this initial difference is the basis for requiring Chasidishe shechita today, even if it's no longer applicable. I could improve my answer if I could find a source or basis for this suspicion. – yoel Mar 15 '12 at 19:06
  • @AmHaaretzGamurMideoraysa in general, we don't abandon a custom even if the reason has changed. – yoel Mar 15 '12 at 19:06
  • @yoel Moreover, why was this Chumra so important even back then (many wouldn't eat meat shechted through iron knives)? Everyone used iron knives until the time of the Mezricher Maggid (steel didn't exist before). So one can't say it's not kosher. Moreover, the only reason the misnagdim opposed steel knives was because it was an innovation. Within a few generations it stopped being an innovation and (AFAIK) misnagdim started using it. So it wasn't such a long standing custom. – Am Haaretz Gamur Mideoraysa Mar 15 '12 at 19:13
  • @AmHaaretzGamurMideoraysa you're assuming it's a chumra. – yoel Mar 16 '12 at 00:09
  • 1
    @yoel You're saying that we wouldn't abandon a custom of not eating at someone's house because he isn't frum even after he becomes frum?!? – Double AA Jul 25 '13 at 23:24
  • The main reason for what is called chasidish shechita (although a total misnomer) is because one cant trust others on the lesions (sirchos). – expern Jul 26 '13 at 11:24