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At a non-kosher restaurant, is thinly-sliced raw fish kosher?

Let's assume one sees the preparer clean the knife and cut from the whole fish.

Also, let's assume this raw fish is sashimi — minus the usual rice, and minus the usual Asian white radish.

(I'm not asking whether or not it's permissible to eat it: if I were, we'd have to consider maris ayin. I'm only asking whether or not it's kosher.)

msh210
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yoel
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    There is no such thing as "setting aside maris ayin". Maris Ayin is halacha, and must be considered within every action. It's like saying "setting aside theft, do I have to toivel plates that I stole from a Jew?" –  Feb 26 '12 at 11:53
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    @Will I don't know. Do I? I would guess not. But what if I stole them from a Non Jew? Now that is a good question. – Double AA Feb 26 '12 at 14:15
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    @Will I don't think your comment is true. Marit Ayin is a halachic concept, but not a halacha itself. There is actually a really fun contradiction with " dan likaf zchut" I think I'll ask a question about it. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 14:18
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    @Will I just read for example, that Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote that if a person is very hungry they may eat kosher food in a non-kosher restaurant, because pain and suffering override rabbinic rulings. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 14:59
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    @Will then we should ask the question of whether or not eating kosher food at a non-kosher restaurant is even a problem. As Curiouser points out here, R' Kamenetsky holds that it is well known nowadays that kosher food can be found even in non-kosher restaurants. – yoel Feb 26 '12 at 16:27
  • @yoel if the restaurant serves both kosher and non-kosher food, then it isn't maris ayin to go in there and eat something. I'm not saying that it's impossible for sashimi to be kosher in a non-kosher restaurant - I'm only saying that we can't "set aside" other halacha when reaching a conclusion. –  Feb 26 '12 at 18:15
  • @Will "if the restaurant serves both kosher and non-kosher food, then it isn't maris ayin to go in there and eat something". Really? Source? Doesn't every restaurant serve cold water? Don't fancy restaurants cater to their patrons sufficiently that if one asks for a whole, uncut apple for dessert, they'll give it to him? – msh210 Feb 26 '12 at 20:29
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    I knew a Chabad shliach who would go to nonkosher restaurants and drink orange juice, in case one would say that water doesn't count as food. @Will since I do agree that one cannot necessarily set aside even a Halachic concept, I will modify the initial clause. – yoel Feb 26 '12 at 21:45
  • There's a problem with the question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sashimi says, "The sliced seafood that composes the main ingredient is typically draped over a garnish. The typical garnish is Asian white radish". So, in practice, when you order "sashimi", you won't just get "raw fish without any rice or other accoutrements". – unforgettableidSupportsMonica May 11 '12 at 20:54
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    @unforgettableid I have seen it served this way in certain restaurants - while I'm not sure daikon is charif, even so one could presumably ask that it be served by itself. At any rate, for what it's worth, when I brought the question to my rov he said the whole premise was not a good idea. – yoel May 17 '12 at 06:20
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    I'd also like to point out that in many cities it is possible to order Kosher food from Kosher restaurants to be served at a non-Kosher restaurant. This is very common at business meetings, etc. – Seth J Jul 10 '12 at 12:41

2 Answers2

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If the fish is kosher (i.e. you can identify it as a kosher species in an acceptable way, e.g. you see the scales on the whole fish, or for skinless salmon by the red color of its flesh which is a sign of kashrus), and everything is cold and clean (fish and utensils), then the fish can be eaten l'chatchila. This is based on the Shach in Yoreh Deah 91 (#3), as well as the discussion in the Aruch HaShulchan in Yoreh Deah 91:6, where it is clear that one may use cold, non-kosher utensils to eat kosher food, as long as it is done only occasionally.

Since nothing is hot, the question of ben yomo or eino ben yomo (whether it was used in the last 24 hours) does not even matter. And as long as you are just eating the fish, then the issue of charif does not matter either. (If however, a non-kosher knife was used to cut a charif food, like an onion, then you could not eat the onion. But if it subsequently cut fish, then the fish is still fine, because fish is not considered a davar charif).

So the bottom line is that the only issue is whether the fish is kosher and cold and the knife is clean. If all you are eating is the raw fish, then there are no issues of charif or kli ben yomo.

(For more on the topic of identifying skinless salmon or other salmanoid fish based on its distinctive red color, see: http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_kashrus_of_skinless_salmon1/ . For white-fleshed fish, the topic becomes more complicated, whether one is expert enough to identify a fish based on its flesh and whether that expertise is valid)

Curiouser
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  • I'm only going to comment about the sushi here, but Salmon skin, Tempura, cooked eel, and Seared are all common ways of serving and preparing sushi dishes in which the food is hot and cooked. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 16:21
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Normally it is not.

When using a knife to cut kosher food there are two requirements.

  1. That the knife is completely clean.
  2. That the knife has not been used since it was cleaned/kashered for 24 hours.

Normally, a person might want to argue that the Fish is cold and so none of these are really issues. However, Sushi is normally NOT halachically cold.

There are two types of "heat" when dealing with kashrut.

  1. Physical heat, such that your hand would not want to touch it.
  2. Spicy "heat", which has a strong flavor.

Under spicy "heat", the common example is an Onion. If the knife cuts an onion, and before cleaning off the knife cuts squid or cooked eel, or a number of other unkosher foods found at a place that serves Sashimi, or more likely, even cuts them at the same time, the knife is no longer kosher. In a restaurant that serves sashimi there is a good chance that Wasabi, Soy Sauce, Radish, Rice wine Vinegar, Ginger, or many other vegetables, all of which count as "hot" will have treifed up the knife less than 24 hours before your sashimi was cut.

I have heard of people who have their own knife which they have given to a sushi chef in places where kosher agencies are not around.

Edit: I see the need to quote a source here so:

Furthermore, davar charif is not limited to imparting tastes into food; it can also impart a taste into a utensil. One scenario would be when a mixture of meat and sharp spices is being chopped with a blade. The sharpness of the spices combined with the pressure of the blade will cause the meat taste to become absorbed into the chopper.[16]

This stringency is also relevant to cutting boards. The Chochmas Odom[17] discusses cutting a piece of salty herring (a davar charif) on a non-kosher plate. He states that the combination of the sharp taste and the pressure from the blade will draw absorbed issur out from the plate and impart it into the fish. Similarly, Rav Shlomo Kluger[18] writes that if an onion was cut with a fleishig knife on top of a milchig plate, both the onion and the knife will absorb a combination of meat and milk tastes, thus rendering them both non-kosher.[19]

unforgettableidSupportsMonica
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avi
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    Wasabi comes as a powder, mixed with water to form a paste. Ginger comes sliced and soaked in packages. I've never seen a sushi chef use his fish knife to cut either. There could be other kashrus problems here, but I don't think that a spicy knife is a serious concern in this case. –  Feb 26 '12 at 11:57
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    @Will You've never heard of a Wasabi Roll? Also, if an ingredient is nearby, you have to be concerned that the knife will cut it. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 14:01
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    I'm not sure your explanation of a davar charif is correct. Even if we assume the knife is non-kosher (i.e. it was used to cut hot, cooked, non-kosher food), still that non-kosher flavor will not transfer to the raw fish if the knife had not been used in 24 hours, which is the usual chazakah. Davar charif means that if you cut a davar charif with an already non-kosher knife, then the cut food absorbs non-kosher flavor (because it is charif). But davar charif doesn't apply at all in the example you gave with the onion and squid -- I don't see how that is relevant. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 15:32
  • @Curiouser The common example is a parve knife, that you use to cut an onion, and cut cold cuts. It's now a fleishic knife. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 16:12
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    @ avi: I don't believe you are correct. You keep mixing up the order. The common example is a fleishig knife used to cut an onion. Now the onion is fleishig. The knife is the same. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:14
  • It seems like the right answer, but are you talking about sushi, which may contain dvarim charifim? I'm talking about sashimi, which is literally just raw fish. To clarify: a knife that has sliced through something charif and something non-kosher together, such that the knife is not kosher, which is then thoroughly cleaned and used to cut raw kosher fish - it is not permitted to use such a knife unless it has gone unused for 24 hours? My understanding was the time factor of 24 hours was only applicable where the utensil was being kashered. – yoel Feb 26 '12 at 16:17
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    @ avi: I recommend you look in the Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 96:1 and review the concept of davar charif, since your answer and comments seem to have it all backwards. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:18
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    @ yoel: 24 hours is also irrelevant to your question; 24 hours has to do with using a utensil for cooking, not for cold use, as I mentioned below and as is discussed in the Shach YD 91. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:20
  • @Curiouser I have quoted the Star K on the issue. I don't have anything backwards. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 16:24
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    @ avi: If would be nice if you could cite a source for your understanding of davar charif, because it is not in the discussion in Shulchan Aruch, where the example is the one I gave. Your example doesn't make any sense. The onion is charif and absorbs flavor from the knife. But how does that affect what you cut with the knife afterwards? Please look in YD 96. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:27
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    @ avi: Where does the Star K say such a thing? On http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-SharpAwareness.htm they say exactly what I said: "For example, if one uses a fleishig knife to slice an onion, even if the knife was clean from any prior residue or grease and the onion was cold, the onion will adopt a fleishig status". Which is the example in Shulchan Aruch that I cited as well. You are mixing things up. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:30
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    @Yoel Nobody serves sashimi with just raw fish. It's on a plate, normally served with radishes and other charif vegetables. Which are likely cut by the same knife used to cut the sashimi. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 16:30
  • @Curiouser It's in my answer, just scroll up and read it. There are two cases, one which you are talking about, a fleishic knife making an onion fleishic, and the one that actually applies to the situation here. A knife cutting charif and unkosher food together. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 16:32
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    @ avi: The question here was about cutting fish. Not fish and a davar charif together. Thus your explanation is confusing and likely still incorrect. The second example of the herring is, again, what I said: that the davar charif (salty herring) absorbs flavors from the knife and plate. But not the reverse! The knife does not become a fish knife! I don't know how many times I can say this: davar charif means the charif food accepts flavor (from a knife, from a plate, etc). But your case: "If the knife cuts an onion, then the knife cuts squid, the knife is no longer kosher" is NOT correct. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:37
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    @Curiouser No, the question here is about Sashimi, and I have NEVER seen a plate of sashimi that did not include some dvar charif on the plate. But this is getting ridiculous. Enjoy eating treif food. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 16:38
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    @ avi: I apologize if you feel I am antagonizing you. I am just trying to help because the way you wrote your answer seems to me to misconstrue the idea of davar charif. The question was about cutting raw fish. Fish is not a davar charif. So therefore you can use a non-kosher knife to cut the fish. There is no dispute on that. If it was a davar charif, then the food would be non-kosher. And according to the chumra of R. Kluger, if the fish was charif, then it could make a knife non-kosher. But you could still use that non-kosher knife to cut non-charif fish, and the non-charif fish would be ok – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 16:44
  • @Curiouser All that you wrote is correct. It's just irrelevant in a place that serves Sashimi. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 18:24
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    @ avi: The question said: "For the record, sashimi is raw fish without any rice or other accoutrements." So based on that, there is no heat and no davar charif being cut with the fish at the exact same time. (As I established, even if the knife was previously used for davar charif, the fish cut with it subsequently is still fine, contra your explanation) Therefore, I don't understand the relevance of much of what you wrote; moreover, your post still reflects an incorrect understanding of davar charif. – Curiouser Feb 26 '12 at 18:39
  • @Curiouser Sashimi is a dish of raw fish, without rice, but it is served, and often prepared with davar charif. Perhaps you should look at the pictures of Sashimi on the link he provided again. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 18:43
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    @avi I would never follow advice from a website without checking with my rov first. I switched mainly because I am speaking davka of raw fish, served plain. I have seen it served this way and if not surely you can ask for it. That said I would mark both answers as correct if I could because I think there is merit in being stringent here, mainly because there's no real reason to be soimech on the chef to follow my assumptions. – yoel Feb 26 '12 at 21:38
  • @avi the question is if is possible to eat a fish that has been cut by a non kosher knife.... Maybe have a issue, if the knife is dirty with something charif and then the charif sticks from the knife to the food... – juanora Dec 05 '12 at 14:33
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    @Curiouser An Asian here and Avi is absolutely right in saying that sashimi is 99.9% of time served with charif toppings. For anyone to deny that is to put himself in a bubble. Even if you ask the chef not to serve you the charif toppings, it is another 99.9% chance that you're not the only customer in the restaurant and he's been cutting charif toppings for the others. So, unless you eat at a restaurant which is authentic Japanese plus extremely classy, you cannot be sure that the chef is not cutting charif with your kosher fish, thus rendering your sashimi unkosher. – Yerushalmi May 24 '17 at 04:47
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    @avi It's a shame that your answer is not recognised by the readers who likely have not considered the way treif possibilities play out in sashimi being served. See also CRC's article which mentions some (presumably less creditable and American) establishments would soak the fish in brine for preservation. http://www.crcweb.org/kosher_articles/kosher_sushi.php – Yerushalmi May 24 '17 at 04:47