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If you daven more slowly than the chazzan, should you skip what someone who came late to davening would skip so that you can reach barchu with the tzibbur?

msh210
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2345678876543
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3 Answers3

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I have to agree with everything YDK said in his answer - except for his conclusion (which he stated first). My direct answer to the question is, instead, absolutely. The question is, which parts should you skip and when are you considered "caught up"?

You should skip parts of Pesukei DeZimra as outlined in the Shulhan 'Aruch (O"H 52:1), in order to catch up to the Tzibur. The point of this is to be caught up for Shemoneh 'Esreh. As outlined later (O"H 66:3), one should interrupt Shema' and its Berachoth to answer to Barechu.

Consequently, as a personal matter, as someone who is a) often able to keep up within a few Pesukim over the course of a handful of Perakim (especially Shema', since the Tzibur generally slows down there), but b) will fall behind by an insurmountable distance over a period as long (and generally fast) as Pesukei DeZimra, I believe it is appropriate and advisable to skip those parts of Pesukei DeZimra that are outlined in the Shu"'A if one is in danger of falling too far behind to be able to begin Shemoneh 'Esreh with the congregation. If you get ahead of the congregation and begin Birchoth Keriath Shema' on your own, you can and should answer Barechu wherever you are.

I am not making this up on my own, either. I have been advised that this is the correct approach by various rabbis over the years.

Seth J
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Absolutely not. Barchu can be answered at any time and if there were such an idea of skipping to say barchu in order, it surly would have been discussed regarding someone who came late.

However, this person has the same law as someone who came late and may skip in order to daven shemona esre together with the tzibbur. If he has time to skip and get ahead enough to daven sh"e with the tzibbur, he should do so regardless of when he says barchu.

YDK
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  • I thought you were supposed to try to say shema with the tzibbur as well. Is that not true? – 2345678876543 Jan 30 '12 at 04:12
  • @AriA yes, but it doesn't mean at the exact point they are at in Davening. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 30 '12 at 04:14
  • @AriA, are you referring to the law that when the tzibbur is saying shema that he should to? That would refer to just the first pasuk and can be said together even in the middle of pesukei d'zimra. – YDK Jan 30 '12 at 04:27
  • Ok... Does "with the tzibbur" for shmoneh esreh mean starting at the exact same time? And If it does, at what point should you be caught up (beginning of gaal yisrael, right before shmoneh esreh, or some other point)? – 2345678876543 Jan 30 '12 at 04:28
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    Also, practically speaking, if you are not caught up by shema, how are you supposed to be caught up by smoneh esreh? – 2345678876543 Jan 30 '12 at 04:31
  • I believe any part that is davened together with the tzibbur is strong enough to skip some pesukei d'zimra. But keep in mind that you must be done with your Sh"E before kedusha. (If i recall correctly, the biur halacha does not require that if you start Sh"E together. – YDK Jan 30 '12 at 04:42
  • If you are talking about someone who davens slow, true. He will be skippin in order to get ahead of the tzibbur and finally begin Sh"E together. – YDK Jan 30 '12 at 04:51
  • YDK, There is discussion in Halachah about skipping parts of Pesukei DeZimra in order to keep/catch up with the Tzibbur. Its goal is to catch up for Shemoneh 'Esrei (and possibly also Shema'), but the method is skipping during Pesukei DeZimra, which is what I think @AriA was asking about. – Seth J Jan 30 '12 at 15:21
  • @SethJ, You are referring to siman 52. AriA is asking about saying Barchu with the tzibbur, of which there is no such discussion. – YDK Jan 30 '12 at 15:48
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    I want to know what you should skip and at what point you should be caught up. I assumed that was barchu, because you can't really skip anything after that. If you are behind at barchu, you will still be behind by shmoneh esre. – 2345678876543 Jan 30 '12 at 23:07
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    @AriA, in short, shemona esre is the main catch up point. For a guy who is slower than the tzibbur, I would recommend (lechatechila) coming early and davening at a pace that will allow him to daven Shemona esre with the tzibbur without consideration of when he will be answering kaddish/Barchu. If he didn't come early enough to do that, then he is a "late-comer". What a late-comer skips should either be a different question, or you should edit your question to reflect what you want an answer to. – YDK Jan 31 '12 at 00:41
  • It's not so simple, Orach Chaim siman 69. – b a Jul 03 '12 at 18:13
  • @ba, I read through OC 69 and cannot figure out what you're referring to. Can you please elaborate. – YDK Jul 03 '12 at 23:21
  • You gave no source because you said that Barchu can be answered at any time, in which case it would be simple that your answer is correct. However, it is preferable to say Barchu after Yishtabach (as is written in OC 69), so it isn't so simple. I'm not disputing your answer (because I don't know what the correct answer is; no one gave a source so far). Rather, I am pointing out that what would surely be the correct halachah (your answer) isn't so simple that it is the correct halachah. Since you didn't give a source, though, it seems hard to give your answer now. – b a Jul 03 '12 at 23:33
  • @ba, I still do not see what you are referring to, could you please quote the words? – YDK Jul 03 '12 at 23:55
  • The siman deals with the importance of saying Barchu specifically in between Yishtabach and brachos of K. Shema. – b a Jul 04 '12 at 00:50
  • @ba, perhaps I'm missing something, but I just don't see that there. I would be more than happy to contemplate this idea if you can be more specific than linking the siman. What line in your link? What words? – YDK Jul 04 '12 at 01:20
  • You're right, it's not in that siman. I remembered seeing a halachah like that and when I looked at the title of the siman I thought that was it, but I was apparently wrong. – b a Jul 04 '12 at 01:53
  • I believe @ba is referring to 54:3 where one who answers Barchu intending to start Yotzer Or is already considered b'emtza haperek, implying an ideal connection between the two. – Double AA Sep 02 '12 at 13:28
  • @DoubleAA While that seems to be a good proof, the statement I was remembering was made specifically in connection to pores al shema – b a Sep 02 '12 at 14:49
  • @ba In that case you may be thinking of the Mechaber's psak in siman 69 that 10 men who already davened can get together to do some dvarim shebekdusha including barchu, and after barchu they say the whole bracha of yotzer or. Meaning, in order to say barchu they have to also say yotzer or implying an inherent connection. – Double AA Sep 02 '12 at 15:02
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I once heard that, according to the opinion of the ARIZAL, one should always go in order and recite all of the Davening (prayers in the Siddur), even if it will entail falling behind. In fact, in some Synagogues, the Chazzan will not move on until there everyone has finished reciting each section, and I think that it is a nice custom to follow because it is more fair for people who take a longer time to recite prayers so that they don't feel embarrassed.

Adam Mosheh
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    A well known Chabad Posek says that if you start Hodu with the minyan, you are yotzei regardless of when you finish. It is something unique to Chabad as most communities do not hold the AriZ'al in this regard. –  Jul 03 '12 at 17:44
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    It may be more fair to people who take more time, but it also emphasizes more to the public those who came late. – Double AA Jul 03 '12 at 17:53
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    @DoubleAA My response is for a person who comes early and prepares for davening and chooses to daven at a slower pace concentrating on their personal connection to Hashem while still be apart of communal prayer. As the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe said about a personal hechi kedusha. It's bad enough a person comes late to shul, now he wants everyone to know he came late? –  Jul 03 '12 at 19:22
  • @mochinrechavim I was commenting directly on AdamMosheh's post. – Double AA Jul 03 '12 at 19:24
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    @DoubleAA I understood his post in that people come to shul to daven and daven slow by choice and should not skip al pi Arizal any of pesukei d'zimra to catch up to the tzibur for Baruch Hu. It is emphasised by a minhag in shuls where the tzibbur waits for a certain person known to daven slow to make sure everyone is caught up. This is something done at a few of the minyanim at my shul. Not sure what is embarrassing but that is up to the individual. –  Jul 03 '12 at 19:29
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    @mochinrechavim My impression from AdamMosheh's answer was that the Chazzan waits for everyone around to finish each paragraph. This would single out latecomers who would not be waited for. This seems different from what you describe. – Double AA Jul 03 '12 at 22:48