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What is the situation with royal converts, i.e., converts who come from royal blood or are of royal relatives? Are they still royal? Do we have to stand for them as with any royal, do we not have to stand, do they take on the role of a regular jewish convert that has to STILL respect and honor to a degree, his past family.

In the case of Onkalos, and his Family, and others as well.

mbloch
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Gabriel
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  • somehow related https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12716/when-if-ever-are-converts-still-related-to-their-relatives – rosends Sep 13 '23 at 15:27
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    Upvoted this. Interesting question, hopefully someone with relevant knowledge can answer. – setszu Sep 13 '23 at 15:42
  • @rosends, Not really, because royalty is something more specific, so by default they have a royal genome, if the convert is the only hair to the throne then there would be a jewish king per say, though should they obstinate the crown they will have to end the lineage and a whole new monarch will arise, now knowing the rabbis today they will ask that the ritual change (Not to be in a church... if they persisted that he be king). – Gabriel Sep 13 '23 at 15:50
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    but the status of royalty isn't a halachic status. The conversion would make the convert unrelated halachically. Whether civil law cares about a person's religious status when deciding heirship isn't a question of Judaism. If the convert is crowned then we defer as we would to any civil king (I assume). – rosends Sep 13 '23 at 16:08
  • So we agree that it's not black and white. Though what about people who are not going to be king though still have a blue blood, do we need to still stand for them Halacha we have to stand for any head of state, blue bloods and such. so what is the case here? – Gabriel Sep 13 '23 at 16:17
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    There is no halachic requirement to stand for "blue bloods" or heads of state. – N.T. Sep 13 '23 at 17:29
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    @N.T. there's the blessing on royalty – Shababnik Sep 13 '23 at 18:09
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    There's a Cambodian princess who converted – Heshy Sep 13 '23 at 19:02
  • Shamaya and Avtalyon – Rabbi Kaii Sep 13 '23 at 20:29
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    "do we have to stand for them as with any royal" what is the source for this? where do you see that we are obligated to stand before royalty? – Deuteronomy Sep 13 '23 at 22:33
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    @Shababnik That blessing only applies to the monarch. – N.T. Sep 14 '23 at 01:58
  • Queen Heleni and King Munbaz were still known by those titles by the sages. – Harel13 Sep 14 '23 at 19:30
  • @Heshy and the Prince of Swaziland too... – Dov Oct 15 '23 at 16:00

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Basically, it shouldn't matter. If the local population treats this person like a royal, then you should a.) show respect accordingly, to get along better with the locals; and b.) perhaps even make an effort to see how royalty is treated. (The latter is an interesting halachic point for some other time.) Both of those points are about de facto, who is regarded as king. The person's technical halachic lineage really shouldn't matter.

Take the eldest son of the Last Shah of Iran. He's a Pahlavi, he lives in Virginia. There is no halacha that says "respect all Pahlavis." The halacha says "respect whoever the locals say should be respected!"

If we went with strict halachic definitions of lineage, for instance, then His Majesty Charles III is a Mountbatten (his father's side), not a Windsor (his mother's side), as non-Jews' lineage is strictly patrilineal. The royal family are the Windsors. Does that make him any less king? Absolutely not! If the UK says he's the king, then he's the king!

The one interesting case that would come up is what bracha you say upon seeing them. A non-Jewish head of state warrants the blessing "[G-d, who] gave of His honor to flesh and blood." A Jewish head of state gets "[G-d, who] shared some of His honor with those who revere Him." The halacha here does note that the latter phrasing applies to any observant, G-d fearing Jew who is a head of state. It doesn't matter that their state is nowhere near Israel, nor that their subjects are mostly non-Jewish. (E.g. in some alternate reality where Joe Lieberman became the US President.) But on this last point, the blessing is reserved for the head of state, so a prince or the like wouldn't trigger it regardless.

Shalom
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  • Unless they're the head of a princedom @Shalom. – הראל Sep 14 '23 at 19:33
  • @הראל fair enough, it depends on the power they wield. "Can they lawfully execute someone, or spare them from the death penalty" is a sufficient barometer (though probably not a necessary one). – Shalom Sep 15 '23 at 00:24
  • @Shalom, So if a cousin of Prince Williams, we don't treat them as such even though they don't have the same respects? The question is really asking about blue blood, do we treat blue blood any different once they convert. – Gabriel Sep 15 '23 at 14:24
  • @shalom, though you are saying no, its irrelevant, we only treat the kings and queens as such respect, not any blue blood because they have a Royal gene, So we don't give respect to the house of royalty, just the king and queen. – Gabriel Sep 15 '23 at 14:27
  • So for now, we don't treat the family from the house of David as actual royals because they are not anointed, (Mashiach) they are just regular rabbis dayanim and so forth. so we give them the respects as such. Not that of the royalty until elyahu decide which one. – Gabriel Sep 15 '23 at 14:29
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    @Shalom, Recently read an article from chabad, In short, rabbi liadi said to the tzar, when in presence of royalty down below we stand as they are also royalty above. And how would you know, your body would start to shake a bit. – Gabriel Sep 15 '23 at 14:32