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Are there recent "orthodox" rabbis who think Rav Eybeschutz was indeed a shabbtaist ?

EzrielS
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    I've heard some say he probably was but it doesn't matter as the Torah he wrote has been proven toras emes – robev Nov 06 '22 at 06:31
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    I do not understand why the question is closed ? What " details or clarity" is needed ? – EzrielS Nov 06 '22 at 10:49
  • related https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/38341/759 – Double AA Nov 06 '22 at 11:54
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    I agree with @EzrielS and have nominated the question for reopening. – Avrohom Yitzchok Nov 07 '22 at 15:32
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    I'd like to know why the question is being downvoted ? – EzrielS Nov 12 '22 at 23:50
  • I think there are one or two historians who still do support that theory (though it's considered a bit odd); if I recall correctly, at one point Emden claimed the Pnai Yehoshua inspected the amulets and declared them "treif"; to which Eybeshutz replied "that's false -- the Pnei Yehoshua is now blind!"; I don't recall but some contemporary scholar found a responsum from the same period whereby the Chida reports the Pnei Yehoshua inspected some signatures -- implying that Eybeshutz's rebuttal of Emden's attack of this one particular point may have been ... mistaken, at best. (Ergo a Sabateyan?) – Shalom Nov 12 '22 at 23:53
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    At least Graetz and Scholem hold that theory, and per wikipedia(FR): "According to ... the academic world in general, recent work leans in favor of Emden " – EzrielS Nov 13 '22 at 11:07
  • @EzrielS I am not at all surprised. Many modern academic-type historians practically live on controversy. – Harel13 Nov 13 '22 at 11:51
  • @Harel13 Yeah actually that does not seems to be a controversy for them. So I dont know. Also even if they are biased , the orthodox world is too. That's why I search recent rabbis who hold this position – EzrielS Nov 13 '22 at 13:34

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I have heard a number of rabbeim say this in private and in public. It's a minority but not of rabbeim who have actually looked deeply into the issue. The evidence against Eybeschuetz (a bunch of Sabbatean amulets, some Sabbatean students, Sabbatean children) is not absolute, even if it is strong enough for academic purposes. Emden was undeniably correct about the vast majority of the figures he accused, of which the most prominent who is still widely cited in frum sefarim is the Kitzur Shelah. But nearly all have agreed for centuries that, no matter the truth of the matter, the viciousness of the dispute, which severely damaged the authority of the Ashkenazi rabbinate, was not worth it. A friend told me that in shiur R. Herschel Schachter compares the Yaavetz's zeal to the famous statement of Rebbi Yochanan: ענוותנותו של רבי זכריה בן אבקולס החריבה את ביתנו ושרפה את היכלנו והגליתנו מארצנו. I believe he meant that, even though the Yaavetz was correct in principle, larger considerations should have been taken into account. Plus, even if Emden was correct in his actions at the time, the chashash of widespread Sabbateanism is gone today. There are no longer Sabbatean sleeper sects in the yeshivos and no one, including Emden, ever said that there was anything wrong with Eybeshuetz's sefarim. All that rabbis could do now is stir things back up to no purpose (academics have a different role). So even if they agree that he was probably a Sabbatean, no one is going to make a fuss over it. R. Binyamin Hecht has a good formulation of this in Livne Binyamin, as I believe does R. Meir Mazuz in one of his books, though I couldn't locate it just now.

EDIT: Have to add, because I praised rabbinic restraint on the issue, that I do not approve of a different trend, wherein our teachers pretend that Eybeschuetz sat passively while the Yaavetz and P'ne Yehoshua accused him. This appears in both works cited above and many, many others, but it is an utter fabrication. After the Yaavetz confronted him privately, Eybeschuetz forcibly closed the Yaavetz's shul and attempted to imprison him. He knowingly accused many honest people of various crimes in his selfish flailing to protect his career. His slim public output is best understood as a tactic, akin to a politician that hides in the hope that reporters will bore of a scandal instead of putting forward a falsifiable defense. We can say that, once Eybeschuetz had refused to resign quietly and attempted to strongarm the Yaavetz instead, and once it had become clear that Eybeschuetz would never submit to the judgement of a beis din, his accusers should have backed off instead of involving more authorities. But what really should have happened is Eybeschuetz should have openly confessed and done teshuva. Because he refused, there weren't any good choices available.

To pick a recent example with an ongoing issue: Our rabbeim generally agree that R. Shmuel Eliyahu was correct to prosecute Chaim Walder even though he had prominent defenders who would make the process a massive chillul hashem. What level of chillul hashem would not be worth it? Probably even Zecharya ben Avqalos's would be -- lest we become The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas. To Emden, to the P'nei Yehoshua, rooting out Sabbateanism was a similar concern. It's difficult today to put ourselves in their shoes.

But again: there's no threat today, so rabbis don't, and shouldn't, make a fuss over it.

user25970
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    While I agree there are no Sabbatean "sleeper sects" among Jewish communities today, you might be interested to know that Sabbateans actually still exist in Instanbul. They're called Dönme. – ezra Nov 13 '22 at 19:09
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    Some years ago I and some others, guided by Elisheva Carlebach, tried to determine how many Dönmeh there actually are. Suffice to say there are several modern messianic cults attached to other figures which boast many more adherents but about which no one is concerned (leaving aside Chabad). Anyway theological threats are always internal; so long as we see the Dönmeh as outsiders their alterity will do the work ipso facto. The danger was allowing Sabbateans into our Overton window. – user25970 Nov 13 '22 at 19:26
  • My impression from Dr. Sid Leiman's writings and evidence is that the truth was pretty well understood by everyone at the time, including the Nodah B'Yehudah. But the Nodah B'yehudah decided to establish an official narrative that was designed to put Sabbateanism outside the pale of what any talmud chacham could believe, and that is where we are today. He decided that eradicating Sabbateanism was more important than anything local, and put an end to the issue. Seems like it worked well. – MichoelR Nov 13 '22 at 22:38
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A critical reader on this issue are Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman's two volumes, To Eliminate The Opiate. The historical relevance remains more pertinent today than ever. The Sabbatean corrupting influence within Judaism remains a real and present danger to the neshama of the entire Jewish people. The entire existence of the reform and progressive movements owe their existence and purpose to the Sabbatean and Frankist conspirators. Eybeschutz's son, Wolf, came out as a self professed Sabbatean. Rabbi Emden was on the money. He still is. To Eliminate The Opiate Vol.1

Harel13
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gec
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  • This doesn't appear to answer the question. Please read the question again – mbloch Oct 30 '23 at 13:52
  • @mbloch why doesn't it answer the question? – Harel13 Oct 30 '23 at 14:10
  • @Harel13 the question was Are there recent "orthodox" rabbis who think Rav Eybeschutz was indeed a shabbtaist ? - I read the answer a few times and can't see the names of these rabbis – mbloch Oct 30 '23 at 14:57
  • @mbloch Rabbi Antelman. He was a rabbi, aligned with Orthodox Judaism and believed Rabbi Eybeschutz was a Sabbatean. – Harel13 Oct 30 '23 at 16:32
  • @Harel13 did you know this in advance or do you see this in the answer? Because I did not. I saw information about his son though. – mbloch Oct 30 '23 at 16:39
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How do you define "rabbi"? If you are going to include non-Orthodox rabbis and the type of person who has semicha but always comes to conclusions that differ from everyone else (you can always find those types) then yes you can find rabbis who think Rav Eybeschutz was a shabbtaist.

If you mean in the mainstream general orthodox community then no you won't find anyone taking that position. To put it slightly differently. No one who is learned enough that he would learn the Seforim of Rav Yehonoson Eibsutz like the Urim V'Tumim or the Kreisi U'Plasi wouldn't do so over concerns of his being a Sabbetian. Those who would express such concerns are not in the habit of learning (or for the most part even capable of easily understanding)such works.

They type of contemporary academics and rabbis who will tell you he was one are not so proficient in Kaballa that they are able to assess or pass judgment on the personal defense that Rav Yehonoson Eibsutz gave that those who are insufficiently learned in Kabblah are misunderstanding him.

Schmerel
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  • "you can find rabbis who think etc" that is what the OP is asking for. Do you know for certain anyone who thinks this? – Harel13 Nov 06 '22 at 06:41
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    Come one, those are two different things that many of his works were eventually approved. But not a vice-rabbi from suburbia told that he was Sabbatean, but the Yaavetz himself, and the historical evidence also supports his claim. – Kazi bácsi Nov 06 '22 at 09:18
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    I would define a Rabbi somebody like Yaavets or the Pnei Yehochua... – EzrielS Nov 12 '22 at 23:50