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If someone is giving Shiur in the same room as people Davening, do the people learning answer Baruch Hu Uvaruch Shemo and Amen to the Hazarat HaShatz?

Isaac Moses
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Hacham Gabriel
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5 Answers5

5

Shouldn't be necessary. Better to focus on Talmud Torah.

Source

EDIT:

For those who can't listen to the shiur, you should know that Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach rules in Halichot Shelomo 9:6 that one does not even need to stop to answer kaddish or kedusha when learning by oneself, let alone when participating in a shiur!

Seth J
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Double AA
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    And when you come out of a cave after learning, be sure to use lazer beam eyes on anyone farming. – avi Jan 04 '12 at 06:23
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    @avi Are you implying that avoiding distractions while studying is bad? – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 14:27
  • I heard the Shiur, and it is a Mahloket Sefard and Ashkenaz. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 04 '12 at 15:22
  • If praising hashem is a "distraction" from your learning, then you have other issues. But if you want to avoid distractions, don't learn in a place where people pray! – avi Jan 04 '12 at 16:26
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    @avi You most certainly do not! Someone who is learning is patur from tefillah and possibly even kriat shema according to the gemara. Rebbi Yehuda HaNassi would say an abridged form of kriat shema during his shiur to avoid stopping shiur. In shamayim, they ask you about kavata ittim letorah not letefillah. The gemara in megillah says that a beit midrash has more kedusha than a beit kenesset. The shulchan aruch only mentions davening with the tzibbur to avoid looking like a poresh in the context of the first pasuk of kriat shema only. Talmud Torah is avoda too you know. Lakol zeman ve'eit... – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 16:35
  • @avi Besides, most of these questions come up in batei medrash which are shuls on the side. Daveners beware... – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 16:35
  • @DoubbleAA you have it completely backwards. http://www.torah.org/learning/rambam/kriatshema/ks2.5.html – avi Jan 04 '12 at 16:42
  • Perhaps you are confused with a Rabbi rendering a judgement, or doing work for the community with "learning" – avi Jan 04 '12 at 16:45
  • @avi Nope. I meant what I said. See Rambam Tefilla 6:8. Even if you say that we are not "Torato Umanuto" you still see the power of Talmud Torah over tefillah. In a case where one already davened, it's very likely the ptur applies even to regular Talmud Torah. – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 16:58
  • Totally agree with @avi's first comment. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 04 '12 at 23:30
  • @HachamGabriel I would like to point out while learning I believe one should always still hear the baby cry. However, I also believe in the Rambam Tefilla 6:8 who clearly says the TT is greater than tefilla. His caveat about tzorche rabim is what allows (if not requires) one to hear the baby's cry. But it is clear that as part of one's avodat hashem, TT takes precedence. Once you have fulfilled your obligation of tefilla, you don't give up TT for the tefilla.... [continued]... – Double AA Jan 05 '12 at 00:31
  • @avi ...[continuation] You're right, that nowadays we do stop learning for minyan, but that's only because our avoda through talmud torah is not strong enough that we still have the obligation to pray. But the rest of the time we should be focusing on TT! Let it be abundantly clear: for Rashb"i and his students, praising Hashem really was so much of a distraction from their TT that they didn't even daven at all. – Double AA Jan 05 '12 at 00:31
  • @DoubleAA what about this example: the netz minyan is doing hazarat sashatz for musaf and the magid shiur is speaking. The people never davened yet, therefore they must answer. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 05 '12 at 00:32
  • @HachamGabriel But this is not fulfilling their obligation to pray. They will pray later. For now they should focus on TT. The whole question from the gemara above is if you interrupt TT to daven. Everyone agrees that if you can do daven later you don't interrupt! – Double AA Jan 05 '12 at 00:34
  • @DoubleAA I see. But I don't believe Sefaradim hold like Reb Shlomo. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 05 '12 at 00:36
  • @HachamGabriel That could be, but it's a matter of psak, not an ideological feeling. – Double AA Jan 05 '12 at 00:37
  • @DoubleAA I see but I have a source, it's not my feeling. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 05 '12 at 00:37
  • @HachamGabriel Yes yes thats what I meant. It's fine for you to paskin differently as a matter of psak, but its not fine to just have a feeling otherwise and go with it. Sorry for the miscommunication. – Double AA Jan 05 '12 at 00:39
  • @DoubleAA my fault. – Hacham Gabriel Jan 05 '12 at 00:40
4

I once asked a Rov regarding the Halacha of what to do in 770. There is one official Shacharis/Mincha/Maariv minyan ("the main minyan") and there are also side minyanim taking place under the Woman's section throughout the day. Between the "side" minyanim and the "main" Beis Medrash are mechitzos to avoid this issue

However, there are times when people (inappropriately) make their minyan in the "main" Beis Medrash.

My question to him was if I have to answer Amen/Barchu/Kdusha. He said that one really should if possible.

ertert3terte
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3

You would have to answer (see Ateret Paz 1:3: Hoshen Mishpat:14:1).

Hacham Gabriel
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1

I just looked up the Ateret Paz which Hacham Gabriel cited and he does not say that you have to answer. He brings a citation from Salmat Chaim who ultimately rules that you don't have to answer.

sabbahillel
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Harry
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-2

Answering to the Shaliach Tzibur is a sign of loyalty to Hashem and the Klal. You affirm that what they are saying is true, and that what they are doing is valid. You even attach yourself to their prayers, benefiting both you and the people praying.

By not responding, you are in effect saying that really you don't care about the klal, and only care about yourself.

Seth J
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avi
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    I'm pretty sure the question asked about a shiur. That seems to imply a group of people of its own, not just one's self. Why is one tzibbur better than the other? – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 14:18
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    Isn't Talmud Torah a sign of loyalty to Hashem also? – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 14:22
  • Talmud Torah is not a sign of loyalty to Hashem. It is the means to learn how to serve Hashem but serves no other purpose. As for competing Tziburs, I see no competition. It takes no thought, and few moments to say "amen" to a bracha. But all the self absorption in the world to not say it. – avi Jan 04 '12 at 16:28
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    Do you even have any sources to back you up before you start calling Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach self absorbed? You haven't quoted one in your answer. – Double AA Jan 04 '12 at 17:24
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    @avi Also, what do you mean 'it serves no other purpose'? Are you telling me that you think Talmud Torah is just a means of learning halacha (in the sense of 'way to act')? Would such a rule really be Keneged Kullam? What do you make of the notion of Torah LishmaH? What do you make of the gemara Menachot 99b that you have to keep learning even if you know all of Torah? Clearly there's more to Talmud Torah than preparing yourself with the halachot. It is an avoda of its own. – Double AA Jan 05 '12 at 00:51
  • Learning Torah is not just about Halacha or what exact action you have to do at x moment of the day. But it is all a means of learning how to serve Hashem. This is why bar yochai was sent back into his cave. And I wouldn't call Rav Shlomo Aurbach self absorbed, but I also think he is being misrepresented. At no point does saying Amen, "distract you" from Talmud Torah. Your obligation to pray is over, but that has nothing to do with the proper behavior of attaching yourself to the klal. – avi Jan 05 '12 at 07:05
  • What is your source? – termsofservice Aug 30 '15 at 20:27