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The Gemara (Niddah 51b) says that there will never exist a fish with scales and no fins. Then comes in the Monopterus Cuchia, a fish which has scales, yet does not possess any fins.

Does anyone have an answer to this? I have been doing some research but did not come up with anything.

Please note that a "fin" in halacha is classified as what the fish uses to swim with, as stated in Chullin 3:7. The Monopterus Cuchia does not, as far as I know, have such fins.

Torahlover613
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    Maybe it's not a fish? I.e., that the halachic classification of a "fish" is one that either has fins and scales, or only fins. If it doesn't have fins, it's not halachically a fish? – Harel13 Dec 26 '21 at 15:30
  • there seems to be discussion online about the http://daatemet.org.il/en/question/about-the-fish-which-has-no-fin-the-monopterus-cuchia/ http://daatemet.org.il/en/question/your-words-about-fish/ https://www.torchweb.org/torah_detail.php?id=117 – rosends Dec 26 '21 at 15:33
  • @Harel13, Technically that would be a good answer. Do you know of a source of the classification of a fish? Perhaps it is written somewhere. Thanks for the response! – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 15:34
  • @rosends Yes I am aware of Daat Emet's arguments I just want to see if they are correct or not, for there is plenty of proof that Oral Torah is divine and therefore was written with divine wisdom. Surely the Chachamim were not wrong about this case either. – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 15:35
  • @Torahlover613 the third link I provided makes a related statement at the end. I was simply filling a gap, as your question indicated that you had not come up with anything in your research. – rosends Dec 26 '21 at 15:38
  • @rosends Gotcha, this did clarify that we understand that it has fins, I am just wondering if it even classifies as a fin. – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 16:08
  • Maybe some of this article will help. – robev Dec 26 '21 at 18:36
  • Isn't the Monopterus Cuchia a swamp eel? – Gershon Gold Dec 26 '21 at 19:26

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I have found an answer to my question! Because the Monopterus-Cuchia has scales that are not visible, it does not classify as having scales in halacha.

For sources, I quote from the oukosher.org site the following: " Both the Aruch HaShulchan and the Tiferes Yisroel mention that the kaskeses must be perceivable by the naked eye from a normal distance in order to be halachicly significant."

I am not sure the exact place they got this from but I also think that it won't be too hard to contact them (or find it ourselves) and get the precise source. But I think for now we can rely on this.

Then for the proof that the Monopterus-Cuchia does not have halachic scales, I refer to fisheriesjournal.org: "Monopterus-Cuchia is a freshwater fish species commonly known as mud eel, swamp eel, cuche or cuchia. It is looks like snake and smooth slimy scale less skin"

For the specific links, see here: (1: https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/an-analysis-of-kaskeses-past-and-present-2/) (2:https://www.fisheriesjournal.com/archives/2019/vol7issue6/PartA/7-5-73-913.pdf )

Torahlover613
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  • I want all of the sources. – Double AA Dec 26 '21 at 20:30
  • @DoubleAA Sure! – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 20:37
  • @DoubleAA I quote from the oukosher.org site the following: " Both the Aruch HaShulchan and the Tiferes Yisroel mention that the kaskeses must be perceivable by the naked eye from a normal distance in order to be halachicly significant." I am not sure the exact place they got this from but I also think that it won't be too hard to contact them and get the precise source. But I think for now we can rely on this. – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 20:38
  • Then for the proof that the Monopterus-Cuchia does not have halachic scales, I refer to fisheriesjournal.org: "Monopterus cuchia is a freshwater fish species commonly known as mud eel, swamp eel, cuche or cuchia. It is looks like snake and smooth slimy scale less skin" – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 20:41
  • For the specific links, see here: (1: https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/an-analysis-of-kaskeses-past-and-present-2/) (2:https://www.fisheriesjournal.com/archives/2019/vol7issue6/PartA/7-5-73-913.pdf ) – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 20:42
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    It's great that you found an answer. You should edit the sources into the answer. – Harel13 Dec 26 '21 at 20:43
  • @Harel13 Bli-neder will do! – Torahlover613 Dec 26 '21 at 20:44
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    The distinction between the type of scales in eels and fish is apparently that eel scales do not detach like fish scales do. It’s also worth noting that although adult eels do not have fins. The larvae & small juveniles do. See: https://pfeil-verlag.de/publikationen/ophichthys-desilvai-a-poorly-known-synbranchid-eel-from-sri-lanka/ – Yaacov Deane Dec 26 '21 at 22:45
  • Here’s a link explaining the unique quality of eel scales: https://niwa.co.nz/freshwater-and-estuaries/nzffd/NIWA-fish-atlas/fish-species/anguillidae – Yaacov Deane Dec 26 '21 at 22:49
  • @YaacovDeane You are correct scientifically, however, in halacha, any scale that is not visible within a normal distance is not a scale at all, making their nature halachically irrelevant. However, what you have stated is scientifically correct, halacha is ruled based on what you can see with the naked eye (in this case, with a certain distance). – Torahlover613 Dec 27 '21 at 01:57
  • @YaacovDeane Also fins in halacha are defined as what the fish uses to swim, which the Cuchia does not have, rather it slithers to move. Nevertheless, it doesn't really make a big difference since the Torah says you will never find a fish with scales and no fish, yet you can find a fish with fins and no scales, which although it may have find (scientifically) it does not have scales both in science and halacha. I am open to any arguments. – Torahlover613 Dec 27 '21 at 02:09
  • I will assume that you are familiar with the famous story of the Brisker Rav and the number of threads in warp and woof in regard to what what is visible with the naked eye. What is obvious to some is missed completely by others. See Yoreh Deah 83 for the emphasis regarding the nature of the scales. The significance of mentioning the fact that the Cuchia, according to the experts who study them, sometimes possess fins and sometimes do not is only to emphasize that the significant siman for them is their type of scales. Not the fins. Consider the related concept of the Chilazon. – Yaacov Deane Dec 27 '21 at 04:26
  • @YaacovDeane Sorry I did not see your comment for a long time. I am a bit confused by your statement. Are you saying that the Halacha for the cuchia is that it does have scales or not? – Torahlover613 Dec 30 '21 at 17:34
  • I believe this is the subject of the dispute between Rav Herschel Schachter and (I think) Rav Moshe Tendler regarding the kashrus of the swordfish, which has fins as well as microscopic scales. If anyone knows more about this, please comment. – Shmuel Koppel Aug 09 '22 at 11:50