1

According to this (https://asknoah.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=2027), Noachides are not permitted to have premarital hookups. Sex is permitted in a permanent/long-term relationship, which is considered equivalent to marriage. But is there a minimum length of time for such an arrangement? Can a person engage in relations if she stipulates that the relationship will last for a week, or until both parties decide to move on, and so forth.

Avrohom Yitzchok
  • 47,518
  • 8
  • 47
  • 131
Kenny Xiong
  • 747
  • 3
  • 11
  • That would depend on the societal rules for a divorce. A marriage lasts until death or a divorce ends the relationship. – sabbahillel Aug 06 '21 at 18:51
  • If both parties agree to move on, or even one party, the "marriage" is nullified with that. – Chatzkel Aug 06 '21 at 19:37
  • The Gemara Yoma 18b says that Rav and R Nachmsn married women for 1 day and then left them, with no need for divorce. Although most commentators explain that they were never really married, the Yavatz explains that they were married as a pilegesh. So we see that a pilegesh could be four a specific account of time. The Rambam Ishus 1;6 sends to indicate that marriage like a pilegesh would be allowed for a Noachide, just like people before the Torah. – Chatzkel Aug 06 '21 at 21:45

2 Answers2

4

I know of no Halachic problem with a Noahide having premarital hookups with non-Jewish women; including “one-night stands”.

The thesis posited in the linked article; that for Gentile men, having sex without the bond of marriage “is deemed to be immoral and disdainful in G-d's eyes”, is not supported by any Halachic sources.

The article later appears to backtrack a bit, and states, “Although such relations are not clearly forbidden for Gentiles, it is a repulsive act, even if done in a temporary fashion.” This is an admission, that the author has no clear Torah source that forbids gentiles from engaging in such relations. Additionally, his pejorative assertion, that even for Gentiles, it is a repulsive act; is likewise not sourced in Halacha.

Non-Jews do not necessarily need to be married, in order to be allowed to engage in sexual intercourse. See Maimonides (Yad, Ishus 1:4) regarding harlotry between Noahides, and there is no apparent moral fault in a non-Jew paying a sex worker for her services.

Also in his Guide to the Perplexed (3:49) he says that prior to Sinai, having relations with a sex worker was a permissible act, on equal moral footing of an Israelite, post-Sinai, having relations with his wife.

Maimonides (ibid.) refers to the story of Judah and Tamar (Genesis 38), and explains that the “shame” mentioned there (v. 23) merely refers to the fact that even in their society, matters of sexuality were best left un-discussed. Judah was also concerned that he would loyally fulfill his contractual obligation of paying the harlot for her services, and neglect to do so would constitute a form of theft.

While non-Jews are not necessarily considered to be married, even if they engage in sexual intercourse, however if a Noahide is interested in having a longer-term relationship, then that might be considered the Noahide equivalent of “marriage”. That will have Halachic implications, in that the woman can’t have any relations with other men during this time period, as long as she’s considered married to her current sexual partner. The time period of Noahide “marriage”, is until one of the parties decides dissolve their relationship [see Maimonides (Yad, Melachim 9:8)].

IsraelReader
  • 4,988
  • 1
  • 12
  • 28
  • Yeah. If the classical sources said that prostitution was allowed, kind a big leap for AskNoah (they're Lubavitch Hassidic by the way) to go on a tirade about "hookups", while in a footnote saying "okay not prohibited..." – Shalom Aug 08 '21 at 16:25
  • @Shalom Regardless of the religious affiliation of the writer, the linked article is erroneous, as it implies Gentiles are obligated to refrain from sexual actions that may not be considered punishable in a Torah-based court of law, but nevertheless are abhorrent to G-d and a departure from the ways of upright, pious living. The truth is, that granted that moral standards are very noble and idealistic. However if Hashem didn’t command Gentiles to adhere to these certain standards, then pretending that these standards are mandatory for them, is a distortion of Torah, and a sin in itself! – IsraelReader Aug 08 '21 at 17:12
  • 2
    @IsraelReader I'm an Italian Noahide, and I 100% agree with your excellent answer. "The Divine Code" is certainly a good book, but it has the limit of mixing the Halakhah with moral or self-styled considerations, which have nothing to do with legal questions. – Amos74 Aug 08 '21 at 17:38
  • @Shalom I tried to leave a comment on the AskNoah website, However you need to be a member to be able to comment. When I tried to register, I got the following message: Sorry, but you cannot register at this time because the administrator has disabled new account registrations. – IsraelReader Aug 08 '21 at 19:23
  • This is a nice example of a difference between a crowdsourced and single-voice website. (There's a question on M.Y about "how does this differ from something like AskNoah?") A single authoritative voice is allowed to use the soapbox in all sorts of ways; a group system will hopefully call people out if they've overstepped. – Shalom Aug 09 '21 at 00:12
  • 1
    @Shalom I don't have any problem with a single-voice website, provided that they're intellectually honest, and allow relevant comments, which the moderator can respond to, and defend his position. I reached out to them via: https://asknoah.org/contactus and also sent an email to: director.asknoah@protonmail.com inviting them to leave a comment here, to defend what they wrote, and/or defend their website's policy regarding comments. Let's see if they respond. – IsraelReader Aug 09 '21 at 05:51
  • 2
    Thank you for your answer. Rav Dovid Schochet concurs that gentile relationships form and break at will, without any minimum period necessary. And wow, I commend you guys for your commitment in uncovering and investigating the truth. – Kenny Xiong Aug 10 '21 at 07:24
  • Shalom, @IsraelReader but doesn't Genesis 2:24 say that premarital relationships are forbidden (I'm a 16 years old noahide and worry a lot because of this question). – Kindnoachs Jul 27 '22 at 15:09
  • @Kindnoachs How do you hear that Genesis 2:24 indicates that premarital relationships are forbidden? – IsraelReader Jul 28 '22 at 17:34
  • @IsraelReader I see now, it doesn't but even though it doesn't stand there, the rabbi's on asknoach say we are forbidden to or should not, but thank you clearing it up for me. – Kindnoachs Jul 28 '22 at 18:16
  • @Kindnoachs It’s important to note, that even though such sexual activity isn’t prohibited for Noahides, it still doesn’t mean that this is a good idea in the long run. It might take care of their immediate sexual urges, for now, but it’s only a temporary fix. – IsraelReader Jul 28 '22 at 18:59
  • @Kindnoachs (cont.) We read in Genesis (2:18) that God says; that it’s not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helpmate for him. This means that man needs to have a steady companion in life; not just someone to hang out with on weekends, or to have a fling with here and there. Lust fulfillment, without long term commitment, doesn’t help man to be not alone. Dating is about forming a meaningful connection, and a real relationship with the other gender. Getting physical, before a real relationship has developed, greatly diminishes the odds of such a relationship ever developing. – IsraelReader Jul 28 '22 at 19:01
  • 1
    I sure hope you are all completely certain in your statements and attitudes, as effectively this answer and the attitudes in the comments give the impression that sexual promiscuity in non-Jews is 'fine', and anyone who says otherwise is outrageous. This makes me very uncomfortable and I believe isn't going to lead to a better world. We have to share the world with non-Jews and all-but-encouraging them to corrupt it, even if they aren't breaking halacha to do so... We have a 16 year old reading this closely looking for an answer. Did you give the right one? Were you a light, a priest? – Rabbi Kaii Mar 28 '23 at 13:22
  • 1
    @Rabbi Kaii - I am a Noachide and I second your comment. I highly recommend the chapters on intimacy and marriage in Rabbi Manis Friedman’s ‘Creating a Life that Matters’ for a high-calibre hashkafic treatment of the meaning of marriage and how the institution is related to proper, G-d ordained intimacy. Rabbi Friedman nails some of the disasterous consequences of the ‘sexual revolution’ and how they are, covertly, tearing the world apart. As your comment suggests, a bit more common sense - humanity - is required here. – Tom W Mar 28 '23 at 23:05
  • @RabbiKaii I believe that being a light to the nations, means, telling the world, the truth of Torah. I completely stand by what I wrote, because I believe that what I wrote is true, even if you're uncomfortable with it. I also believe that presenting your own ideas under the guise of bona-fide Torah, is falsehood, a corruption of Torah, and is not condonable, even if done with good intentions. – IsraelReader Mar 28 '23 at 23:10
  • @RabbiKaii (continued) I never intended to convey that sexual promiscuity in non-Jews is 'fine'. But the critical question is how to define "promiscuity" in the context of Noahide law. I posit that according to the Torah, Gentiles and Jews have different parameters in this area, as is evident from Maimonides, who I quoted from in my answer. If you have different sources to present, you're invited to do so. – IsraelReader Mar 28 '23 at 23:11
  • @RabbiKaii If we're looking to better the world, then we should promote the message about what's permitted by the Torah in the way of sexual relationships, so that they won't be tempted by forbidden types of relationships. We should emphasize that certain male-female relationships are permitted, and homosexuality is absolutely prohibited, and isn't an "alternative" option. Young gentiles also need to be told the truth, which I tempered with a piece of advice, that even though such sexual activity isn’t prohibited for Noahides, it still doesn’t mean that this is a good idea in the long run. – IsraelReader Mar 28 '23 at 23:12
  • @TomW Is Rabbi Manis Friedman's book geared to Noahides? I agree that gentiles can gain by living a more spiritual lifestyle, but we must know what is mandatory, and what is "extra". To posit that Noahides are not permitted by the Torah to have premarital hookups, is a distortion of Torah. Distorting Torah is a serious sin in itself. – IsraelReader Mar 28 '23 at 23:20
  • @IsraelReader - Pardon my boldness - I am but a goy: I think you should read what the great Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said about doing what is right AND good in the eyes of HKBH. That commandment points to something beyond the strict letter of the law, as Rabbi Sacks explains.

    https://www.rabbisacks.org/covenant-conversation/vaetchanan/the-right-and-the-good/

     – Tom W Mar 28 '23 at 23:28
  • (Rabbi Jonathan Sacks zt”l - apologies.) – Tom W Mar 28 '23 at 23:36
  • @TomW I accept the truth, from Jew or non-Jew alike. Rabbi Jonathan Sacks' exposition is correct, and one should always strive to do what is right and what is good in the Lord’s eyes. However, we must remember that the verse is directed to the Israelites, and isn't binding on Noahides. I quoted Maimonides, who says that prior to Sinai, having relations with a sex worker was a permissible act, on equal moral footing of an Israelite, post-Sinai, having relations with his wife. That indicates that Maimonides would find no moral flaw in such an act, despite modern sensitivities to the contrary. – IsraelReader Mar 29 '23 at 00:42
  • @IsraelReader - serious question: Do you think the Noachide code is the same today as was given to Noach, after Sinai and after two thousand years of Xianity, in which Gentiles have been studying and reflecting on Tanakh / Torah (and even studying and reflecting on Talmud, Jewish commentaries, halakha etc.)? – Tom W Mar 29 '23 at 01:05
  • P.S. It’s 2am where I am now and I have to be up in the morning. So, G-d willing, I will get back to this another time. Laila tov. – Tom W Mar 29 '23 at 01:07
  • @TomW It's a very good general question. Please post it as a separate posting, and I will be happy to respond. – IsraelReader Mar 29 '23 at 01:16
-3

Pre-marital sex often leads to wasting of the seed/semen, which is a grave sin punishable by death, per Bereishit/Genesis chapter 38, verses 8-10:

"So Judah said to Onan, "Come to your brother's wife and perform the rite of the levirate, and raise up progeny for your brother."

Now Onan knew that the progeny would not be his, and it came about, when he came to his brother's wife, he wasted [his semen] on the ground, in order not to give seed to his brother.

Now what he did was evil in the eyes of the L-rd, and He put him to death also."

By the way, in the same chapter, we find out that Onan was also a gentile, the product of Judah's union with a Caananite woman, Shua.

Trust that Hashem will lead you to the right woman instead of sleeping around.

ddas91600
  • 378
  • 2
  • 15
  • Is that the way the Talmud reads those verses? Rashi? – Shalom Mar 27 '23 at 23:34
  • "punishable by death, per Bereishit/Genesis chapter 38, verses 8-10" No one extrapolates from Onan that there is a writ large death penalty for masturbation. – Deuteronomy Mar 28 '23 at 13:41
  • @Deuteronomy wasting seed is not limited to masturbation, if seed is not used for the intended purpose (procreation), it is considered wasting seed – ddas91600 Mar 29 '23 at 00:36
  • @Shalom This is what Rashi writes (per Chabad Bereishit): he wasted [his semen] on the ground: He practiced coitus interruptus. [From Gen. Rabbah 85:5] – ddas91600 Mar 29 '23 at 00:37
  • @ddas91600 No one extrapolates from Onan that there is a writ large death penalty for masturbation, coitus interruptus, or any other "wasting seed". Furthermore, it is not anywhere as absolute as you make it seem, see H. Issure Biah 21:9 (from an uncorrupted girsa). – Deuteronomy Mar 30 '23 at 17:11
  • @Deuteronomy "Now what he did [coitus interruptus] was evil in the eyes of the L-rd, and He put him to death also." (Gen. 38: 10) Are we to deny Torah now? – ddas91600 Mar 31 '23 at 19:09
  • @ddas91600 are you claiming that the Rambam denies Torah? The answer must surely be no. In which case, it is clear that what you are extrapolating from the pasuq is wrong. – Deuteronomy Apr 02 '23 at 21:24
  • @Deuteronomy From Mishneh Torah, Issurei Biah 21:18:

    "It is forbidden to release semen wastefully. Therefore a person should not enter his wife and release outside of her… Those who release semen with their hands, beyond the fact that they commit a great transgression, a person who does this will abide under a ban of ostracism. Concerning them, it is said: “Your hands are filled with blood.” It is as if they killed a person." Rambam says it's like they killed a person. What's the penalty again for killing a person?

     – ddas91600 Apr 03 '23 at 23:07
  • @ddas91600 It is as if etc. Key words. The very text you quote openly states that one caught engaged in masturbation is placed under herem. Not killed. Absolutely no one makes that claim. – Deuteronomy Apr 14 '23 at 22:23