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Many kiruv/outreach Rabbis, in an attempt to prove the veracity of the Torah, will base their claim on the concept of National Revelation. Part of that proof, they say, is that the Torah states that no other people will claim a national revelation and live. I'm not asking if that statement is true or not, but I'm wondering if the Torah really says that. The verse they cite is Deuteronomy 4:32:

כִּ֣י שְׁאַל־נָא֩ לְיָמִ֨ים רִֽאשֹׁנִ֜ים אֲשֶׁר־הָי֣וּ לְפָנֶ֗יךָ לְמִן־הַיּוֹם֙ אֲשֶׁר֩ בָּרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ אָדָם֙ עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּלְמִקְצֵ֥ה הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְעַד־קְצֵ֣ה הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם הֲנִֽהְיָ֗ה כַּדָּבָ֤ר הַגָּדוֹל֙ הַזֶּ֔ה א֖וֹ הֲנִשְׁמַ֥ע כָּמֹֽהוּ׃

You have but to inquire about bygone ages that came before you, ever since God created man on earth, from one end of heaven to the other: has anything as grand as this ever happened, or has its like ever been known?

Now, this verse is explicitly talking about the past. Never before the Jewish people was there a claim of national revelation. Fine. But where is it evident this verse is also talking about the future? Is it something that is perforce somewhere in the verse, with regards to its wording or grammar? Do any of the commentaries point this out?

I'm interested in a demonstration from the verse itself, as this verse is supposed to convince the non-believer.

Note: I once asked one of these outreach Rabbis where they saw it in the verse. They said it's obvious that it's included in the verse, because otherwise there's no reason for the Torah to say it. Meaning, there isn't a novelty in the verse unless it includes the future as well. This was very unconvincing, especially if we're using this verse to convince someone who doesn't believe there is nothing extra or redundant in the Torah.

robev
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  • related question – robev Jul 05 '21 at 20:28
  • Why does it matter for the argument if the promise is for the future? – Double AA Jul 05 '21 at 21:30
  • @DoubleAA you're correct that the argument that national revelation is better than personal one doesn't need Judaism to be unique. However, the argument is extended that it's such a strong argument that there aught to have been other cases of it. The reason there hasn't been is because you can't fabricate such an event, thus proving the veracity of the Torah. A different usage of this verse is that no one would dare make such a bold claim unless they could know it would prove true, ie through prophecy. Either way... – robev Jul 06 '21 at 05:34
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    I heard that the National Revelation sounds less strong when the whole generation dies in the wilderness. – Al Berko Jul 07 '21 at 19:08
  • I would agree with the plain reading: whenever a reader might wonder, the statement will hold, therefore it is eternal. – Al Berko Jul 07 '21 at 19:16
  • when the whole generation dies in the wilderness well, except the women and men under 20 and over 60, which is most likely a million or two people @AlBerko – robev Jul 07 '21 at 19:18
  • @AlBerko I would agree with the plain reading: whenever a reader might wonder, the statement will hold, therefore it is eternal. that is not the plain reading. The plain reading is Moshe telling those people at that time that question. – robev Jul 07 '21 at 19:19
  • @robev If so you might claim that Shemah Israel was also told for the present people only. Even in my understanding, Deuteronomy addresses "כי את אשר ישנו פה עמנו עמד היום לפני ה"א ואת אשר איננו פה עמנו היום", so all talks and commandments obligate all future generations. – Al Berko Jul 07 '21 at 19:34
  • @AlBerko A statement that G-d is one has no reason to be limited to time. But yes Moshe was talking to the people at that time... Deuteronomy is his goodbye speech to the people...not sure your point. – robev Jul 07 '21 at 19:55
  • Shema Israel is the same way of addressing the crowd as כי שאל נא לימים. But we understand it very straightforwardly as an eternal commandment. Why not the rest? – Al Berko Jul 07 '21 at 19:58
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – robev Jul 07 '21 at 20:50
  • The Torah is a national revelation to Jews only. The rabbis argue that Torah revelation is unique, God only once revealed himself to a multitude. This is far from the truth. God revealed himself to all every day. Torah "revelation" is one aspect of revelation from God to man. – Turk Hill Mar 29 '23 at 00:58
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    @AlBerko You are correct that National Revelation is less strong when the whole generation died in the wilderness. I have never heard someone make that argument. It proves the kuzari argument fails. A better argument for the divinity of the Torah is that it works. – Turk Hill Mar 29 '23 at 01:00
  • Jews were not the first nor the last to receive national revelation. Not anywhere close. Revelation is not closed. It is ongoing. It presents itself in all ages and to all countries. The Torah is divine but it is not unique in being the only revelation. – Turk Hill Mar 29 '23 at 13:35
  • @TurkHill I think you're misunderstanding the term national revelation. – robev Mar 29 '23 at 14:12
  • @robev Revelation did not cease; it is ongoing. It is not information that was revealed only through prophets or wise people at one time or one place. It is information about the world and God contained in daily events and in studying and understanding science and history. – Turk Hill Mar 29 '23 at 16:07
  • Do you deny that Moshe had unique revelation? Never to be duplicated? Your points are valid but a strawman. – robev Mar 29 '23 at 18:37
  • @robev How are they a strawman? Did Moses experience nature better than the rest? Moses was human and we all experience nature. Although Moses had more insights into nature than the average person. – Turk Hill Mar 29 '23 at 19:28
  • @AlBerko - the Kuzari doesnt require them to be immortal, just to be live long enough to pass it on to their children – Saon Jul 27 '23 at 19:19

3 Answers3

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As is understood from the verses beforehand, this parsha is talking to future generations when Klal Yisroel will be in exile. Therefore, the verse is clearly stating, that even in 2021 (or any time in the future for that matter) this verse will still ring true. So, in essence the verse is saying that nobody will ever make such a claim and people will always be able to verify the verse no matter how far into the future of history they live.

robev
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Chatzkel
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  • Hello Chatzkel and welcome to Mi Yodeya. Numbers 10:33, one of thousands of verses, may be true but that doesn't mean it's referring to the future. It's a historical statement about something in the past. It's not talking about today. So too in our verse. Moshe was talking to the people about the past. What justification is there to say he was referring to the future? – robev Jul 06 '21 at 06:28
  • Of course there are many such verses, the entire episode of yetzias mitzraim would be ample proof for that. However, in this parsha, starting from Deuteronomy 4:25 is referring to future generations when they are in galus. Therefore this passuk must be understood by future generations and be able to be verified as such. – Chatzkel Jul 06 '21 at 14:10
  • So then that's your answer, context. None of this living Torah business...I suggest you edit your answer. – robev Jul 06 '21 at 15:26
  • OK, thank you for helping clarify. – Chatzkel Jul 06 '21 at 16:04
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Look two verses earlier:

בַּצַּ֣ר לְךָ֔ וּמְצָא֕וּךָ כֹּ֖ל הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֑לֶּה בְּאַחֲרִית֙ הַיָּמִ֔ים וְשַׁבְתָּ֙ עַד־יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ וְשָׁמַעְתָּ֖ בְּקֹלֽוֹ׃

when you are in distress because all these things have befallen you and, in the end, return to the LORD your God and obey Him.

Perhaps one could argue that the verse in between breaks the futuristic voice, but this seems like a strong indication that the exclusivity is eternal.

Mordechai
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The point is that if everyone in an entire nation sees the revelation (several million people), then it would be not probable that one individual invented it and convinced the entire nation to testify about that occurrence. Once that happened, everyone maintained exact copies of that document in sufficient duplicates to maintain everything exactly as it was for three thousand years. None of the first born objected to the priesthood being set up. Nor did anyone object to commandments that would not be logical restrictions nor did they object to sudden restrictions (such as shaatnez or kashrus) which would (supposedly) never have existed before. Only a direct command of Hashem to the entire generation suffice. Indeed, the other nations (at that time) never objected or claimed that it never happened.

As an example, consider many of the conspiracy theories that we have floating around the world.

Chabad.org How Do We Know That We Heard G‑d at Sinai? discusses this.

I think most historians will agree that history as it is practiced in academic circles can be defined as follows: The search for the most likely sequence of events to explain whatever remnants have endured till today.

Following this paradigm, let us examine our case. The evidence is as follows: Universally, there is a single account of how the Jewish people received the Torah. It states that on the sixth day of the third month of the year 2448 from Creation, an entire nation full of dissidents and skeptics gathered at the foot of a mountain in the Sinai Desert and witnessed how G‑d spoke with Moses. Rather overwhelmed by the experience, they asked Moses to kindly fetch all the details of what exactly G‑d would like from them and report on it. Which he did, over a period of forty years wandering in the desert. Moses also charged the people to keep multiple copies of the written record, which they did, and so we have many copies of that record to this day.

sabbahillel
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  • But does the Torah say that it no one will claim a mass revelation in the future? – Alex Jul 05 '21 at 23:38
  • I second Alex's comment. This is more of a comment which I have difficulty following than an answer. The point is that a national revelation would be known by everyone else in the world, who says? National revelation does not equal global revelation. Thus, any time in the future would be seen and known, that's a nonsensical statement. – robev Jul 06 '21 at 06:32
  • @robev I will rewrite it so that it is more easily understood. Consider as an example if everyone in the United States saw it rather than one individual claiming a revelation. – sabbahillel Jul 06 '21 at 16:56
  • Thank you for your efforts but I don't understand why you rewrote this considering it in no way answers my question...as pointed out by @Alex and I – robev Jul 06 '21 at 17:53