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If I'm not mistaken, to be a Noahide you must accept that the Torah is unchanged and from G-d. (I am not arguing that this is one of the 7 Noahide Laws by the way, I'm merely saying that this could be a prerequisite to be considered a Noahide).

However, according to my understanding, Muslims are not Noahides, since they reject the infallibility of the Torah. In other words, they say that the contemporary Torah has been altered from the one that Moshe Rebbeinu received at Sinai. Therefore, according to their beliefs, they would not feel compelled to abide by the 7 Noahide Laws because they don't believe it to be from G-d in the first place.

I say the above in light of what Maimonides says in Mishneh Torah, Melachim uMilchamot, Chapter 8:

Anyone who accepts upon himself the fulfillment of these seven mitzvot and is precise in their observance is considered one of 'the pious among the gentiles' and will merit a share in the world to come.

This applies only when he accepts them and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us through Moses, our teacher, that Noah's descendants had been commanded to fulfill them previously.

However, if he fulfils them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of 'the pious among the gentiles,' nor of their wise men.

So my question is: What categories do Muslims fit into in light of what Rambam says above? Are they Noahides? If not, what are they?

Yosef
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  • @DoubleAA Surely one would only accept the Noahide Laws because they believe it is from G-d. If the Torah was corrupted, nobody would feel the need to follow it since it's no long the word of Hashem Therefore, I think it's fairly logical to say Rambam's statement is implying that a prerequisite of being a Noahide is to accept the infallibility of the Torah – Yosef Feb 04 '21 at 07:57
  • @Yosef, their saying that some things in the Torah are corrupted, ח"ו, doesn't have to include the seven mitzvos. I'm no expert in Islam, but my guess would be that they keep to them because they see them as a commandment from God, and probably to Adam and Noah specifically. – Mordechai Feb 04 '21 at 08:25
  • related: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/48952 – הנער הזה Feb 04 '21 at 16:31
  • Do the Muslims hold the written Torah is corrupted or that the oral Torah is? Since the oral isn't meant for goyim, I wouldn't think they have to accept it's validity. – Clint Eastwood Sep 04 '23 at 12:12

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The Rambam says (Hilchos Teshuvah, 3(8)), in his list of those who have no share in the World to Come:

שְׁלֹשָׁה הֵן הַכּוֹפְרִים בַּתּוֹרָה. הָאוֹמֵר שֶׁאֵין הַתּוֹרָה מֵעִם ה' אֲפִלּוּ פָּסוּק אֶחָד אֲפִלּוּ תֵּבָה אַחַת אִם אָמַר משֶׁה אֲמָרוֹ מִפִּי עַצְמוֹ הֲרֵי זֶה כּוֹפֵר בַּתּוֹרָה. וְכֵן הַכּוֹפֵר בְּפֵרוּשָׁהּ וְהוּא תּוֹרָה שֶׁבְּעַל פֶּה וְהַמַּכְחִישׁ מַגִּידֶיהָ כְּגוֹן צָדוֹק וּבַיְתּוֹס. וְהָאוֹמֵר שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא הֶחֱלִיף מִצְוָה זוֹ בְּמִצְוָה אַחֶרֶת וּכְבָר בָּטְלָה תּוֹרָה זוֹ אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהִיא הָיְתָה מֵעִם ה' כְּגוֹן הָהַגְרִים. כָּל אֶחָד מִשְּׁלֹשָׁה אֵלּוּ כּוֹפֵר בַּתּוֹרָה
There are three categories of deniers of the Torah: (1) he who says that the Torah is not God given, even if he says that a single Verse or one word thereof was spoken by Moses on his own authority is, indeed, a denier of the Torah; (2) he who denies its Oral explanation, that is the Oral Torah, or its exponents, even as Zaduk and Bythos did; (3) he who says that the Creator commuted this Duty for another duty and that the Torah had been nullified long ago though it really was God given; like the Hagarites; every one of these three is a denier of the Torah.

Presumably that means Moslems, descended spiritually from Ishmael Hagar's son. Not sure if he's referring to just the last one. I think all three could apply.

MichoelR
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    I'm not sure this includes non-Jews. See the end of that chapter (halacha 14) and the quote in the OP. – Mordechai Feb 04 '21 at 08:27
  • @Mordechai I don't see why any of that excludes non-Jews from the exclusion listed here? – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 13:47
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    He's saying a Jew who has a view like what the Hagrites have is a Kofer. It doesn't say that all Hagrites don't have a share in the world to come. – Double AA Feb 04 '21 at 14:06
  • Understood, but I'm not hearing the need to say that distinction. Do we have evidence from somewhere that he considers the standards for non-Jews to be less? The quote from the OP sounded like they ought to be theologically similar to Jews. – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 14:10
  • It may be relevant to note that the section begins (3(5)) with a comment that all Israel has a share in the World to Come, and the righteous of the nations as well. And then the Rambam gives this list of exceptions. – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 14:57
  • I meant "אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהֵן מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל". The Rambam is saying that this theology excludes a Jew from being automatically worthy of the world to come even if he is more wicked than righteous. The standard for a non-Jew is in the OP, and as pointed out this doesn't have to include believing in the rest of the Torah. – Mordechai Feb 04 '21 at 15:29
  • I guess I read it differently. Even if he is a Yisrael, who gets in by default, these things exclude him. How much more so... "This doesn't have to include believing in the rest of the Torah": the Rambam is brief, but he mentions "the Torah" and "Moshe"; I'm not sure you're right that he's giving a different standard. I guess I'd assumed he's just referring to the standards listed below. Otherwise "Torah" is just a name. – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 15:52
  • @DoubleAA see the article from R Mayer Twersky linked here who also reads this as speaking to Muslim's share in the afterlife (not their status as Noahides necessarily) – הנער הזה Feb 04 '21 at 16:34
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    I'm not saying that the answer is wrong, just stating my doubt. – Mordechai Feb 04 '21 at 20:20
  • Fair enough, and I'm not sure. – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 20:21
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According to the Quran of the Muslims,

  • Not to worship idols. Quran 31:13
  • Not to curse God. Quran 6:108
  • Not to commit murder. Quran 5:32
  • Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality. Quran 24:2
  • Not to steal. Quran 5:38
  • Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal. Quran 5:3
  • To establish courts of justice. Quran 57:25

Although the Muslims accept the commandments as they are stated in the Torah pashut, they do not accept the current Mesorah as valid and their Quran does not specifically state that these laws came from the revelation at Sinai. But in order to be considered "Pious among the gentiles" (i.e, a Noahide) one must accept that these laws came from the Torah, and that they were revealed to us through Moshe Rabbeinu A"S. According to the Rambam in Mishneh Torah; Melakhim uMilchamot 8:11:

"This applies only when he accepts them and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us through Moses, our teacher, that Noah's descendants had been commanded to fulfill them previously. However, if he fulfills them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of 'the pious among the gentiles,' nor of their wise men."

Eliyahu Al-Hazzan
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This from a Gentile who loves Israel and its people, the 7 Noahide Laws are rules that all of us must keep, regardless of who we are or from where we come, as they were given to "mankind", as there was no Jewish nation at that time. Without these seven things, it would be impossible for humanity to live together in harmony. Basically, universal norms of ethical conduct, as a basic concept in international law. Sha’alu shalom Yerushalayim.

tom Howard
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  • Welcome to MiYodeya Tomorrow and thanks for this first answer. Since MY is different from other sites you might be used to, see here for a guide which might help understand the site. Note that personal opinions are discouraged since we don't know you - answers are expected to be sourced and address the question at hand. This might lead to your answer being deleted but hopefully this won't discourage you. Great to have you learn with us! – mbloch Sep 04 '23 at 16:14
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I would note that whether Islam is idolatry is a question mark. There are many rabbis that say it is. Nowadays many say it's not, based on RAMBAM, but they aren't aware of the numerous views that say it is. (added- or worse, they are aware but they hide those views, either because they disagree with them, which is no excuse, or possibly out of political correctness).

Is Islam Avodah Zara?

barlop
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    @barlop I don't understand why you are assigning people bad motives. It's enough to say that they disagree without doing that. It is part of any authority's job to decide which views to choose and focus on. They are not obligated to weigh things the same way you do. – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 16:00
  • Against all this, that "whether Islam is idolatry is a question mark" is certainly a true statement, given the sources here. A reasonable point to raise, tho I'd suggest leaving out the personal attacks. – MichoelR Feb 04 '21 at 20:23
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Double AA Feb 04 '21 at 23:38
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The Talmud quotes prophet Havakuk, recalling “G-d releasing the gentiles from their 7 Noahide laws.”[1] However, this did not occur literally, meaning that there is no longer any direct transmission dating from the time Noah. Thus, modern gentiles do not observe the Noahide laws out of G-d's will but of their own thinking, forfeiting any deeper reward.

However, if a gentile accepts that these Seven laws of Noah stem from G-d's Will, they will receive a greater reward. More importantly, if they accept all of Torah as the word of G-d, their reward is equal to a full-fledged Jew.

Thus, it seems that a Muslim does need to accept the Noahide commandments as God’s words, but he need not accept Torah.

[1] Talmud Avoda Zara 2b-3a

Turk Hill
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The Seven Noahide Commandments[1] are as follows:

Prohibition of idolatry, blasphemy, bloodshed, sexual immorality, theft, the establishment of law courts, and the prohibition against eating a limb from a live animal. Nowhere, at least among these seven, does it say that the people must accept the Torah.[2]

[1] According to Maimonides’ Code (though the Tosefta lists the commands differently)

[2] Although Meir pointed out to me Rambam, Laws of Kings 8:11

Turk Hill
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    The Rambam does mention that point (that they must accept that these mitzvos were given by Hashem) in Laws of Kings 8:11. – Meir Feb 04 '21 at 18:08
  • @Meir Does that Rambam pertains to non-Jews? Even if it does, this command or idea that G-d gave the Torah is not one of the Seven Noahide mitzvot. – Turk Hill Feb 04 '21 at 19:55
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    @TurkHill are you arguing on your hero, the Rambam? – robev Feb 04 '21 at 20:03
  • @robev Do we only see Rambam or other commentators? – Turk Hill Feb 04 '21 at 20:18
  • @TurkHill Yes, that's whom he's talking about in that halachah. He goes on to say that if a non-Jew accepts these seven mitzvos because they're logical, rather than because G-d said so, then "he's not one of the righteous of the nations" - and then there are variant versions (different manuscripts and printings) whether he continues that such a person is or isn't "one of the wise among the nations." – Meir Feb 04 '21 at 20:18
  • @Meir Thank you for your input. I agree with it. – Turk Hill Feb 04 '21 at 20:19
  • Then you should delete this answer. – robev Feb 04 '21 at 21:38
  • @robev And why would I want to do that? – Turk Hill Feb 04 '21 at 23:29
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    Because you admitted the Rambam proves you're answer is incorrect – robev Feb 05 '21 at 07:00
  • @robev No, not necessary. – Turk Hill Feb 05 '21 at 15:01