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I am an Italian Noahide.

HaShem is also defined in the Torah as "Elohim" who in this case expresses, as Ramban teaches, the concept of "Master of all the forces" and "the Power over all the powers". I wonder, however, if this sovereignty of God over every reality can be considered compatible with some limits regarding His omnipotence. I have seen for example that according to Ralbag it is absurd to think that HaShem could have created the universe ex nihilo, because this would be materially impossible even for the Creator: this master therefore does not seem to believe in an absolute omnipotence of HaShem. I am not referring here to the concept of divine self-limitation, which is the result of a precise will of the Great King, but precisely to the case of activities that God would not be able to carry out. It is a compatible concept with the Torah? I personally doubt that HaShem has the power to perform an act against Himself, such as creating a more powerful being than Him, or even deciding to end His existence (I speak by paradox obviously).

Amos74
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  • If one disagrees with creation of the universe ex nihilo, then who created the preexisting material, out of which the world was allegedly created from, and how did that hypothetical creator create it, if not ex nihilo? – IsraelReader May 19 '20 at 21:27
  • @IsraelReader Ralbag believed that matter was co-eternal with God, but subjected to His dominion. However, I have cited this position only as an example, in relation to my question on the possible limits to the omnipotence of the Creator. – Amos74 May 19 '20 at 21:33
  • Would you be able to source that Ralbag? I'd love to see it inside. – Yehuda May 19 '20 at 21:51
  • Check out this article in Hakirah. – Alex May 19 '20 at 22:06
  • Im not sure what you mean by "absolute sense" but not being able to do non-things (like these paradox 'cases') doesn't diminish any absolute sense of omnipotence – Double AA May 19 '20 at 23:07
  • I do not see that the creation ex nihilo is impossible according to the article in Hakirah. The question as you ask it appears to be impossible. – sabbahillel May 20 '20 at 00:15
  • @Amos74 Ture, some feel that saying that G-d used pre-existing material to form the world belittles G-d. However, Ralbag, as you write, held this view. But does it really make a difference whether G-d created the world out of nothing or formed it out of matter that, like him, existed for all eternity? I thinks that it makes no difference. Even if people accept the latter view, they are still believing that G-d miraculously formed a world out of preexisting matter. – Turk Hill Jun 06 '20 at 23:30
  • @Amos74 Also, thank you for your comments on this page. Unfortunately, they deleted them before I could reply. But yes, you are correct. Rambam did say that some (but of course not all) of the biblical stories are parables, as you pointed out when you read the Guide. – Turk Hill Jun 06 '20 at 23:30
  • Maimonides wrote for two audiences the intellectual and the common person. One needs to read the entire Guide to get a feel for what he understands is true. Not everyone accepts the idea that Maimonides wrote many essential truths. But I think he did. – Turk Hill Jun 06 '20 at 23:30
  • @IsraelReader If the universe is eternal, as Rambam says, then it follows that G-d could not have created it. Thus, the pre-existing material/matter must-have, like him, existed for all eternity. Whatever is created is finite and is subject to decay. In fact, the very definition of the word "eternal" means without beginning or end. – Turk Hill Jun 06 '20 at 23:45
  • @TurkHill Maimonides (Yesodei Hatorah, Chap.1) indicates that there has to be ONE primary first cause of creation. The law of cause and effect states, that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect. Since material effects without adequate causes do not exist, that should preclude the notion of pre-existing material that is unrelated to any other power, other than Hashem. – IsraelReader Jun 07 '20 at 13:00
  • @IsraelReader the notion that G-d formed the universe out of pre-existing matter is still a necessary cause and a First case. Aristotle's "unmoved mover" is also a First cause who formed the world from preexisting material. – Turk Hill Jun 07 '20 at 16:55
  • Again, the universe, soul, matter, can only be eternal if they are uncreated. Because eternality means without beginning or end. For whatever is created must decay. So, for example, if your soul was created then it is not eternal. A first cause does not necessarily denote ex nihilo. Because out of nothing, you get nothing. It's much like trying to create a square-circle, which is an impossibility. – Turk Hill Jun 07 '20 at 16:59
  • @TurkHill You're contradicting Maimonides (Yesodei Hatorah 1:1): יְסוֹד הַיְסוֹדוֹת וְעַמּוּד הַחָכְמוֹת לֵידַע שֶׁיֵּשׁ שָׁם מָצוּי רִאשׁוֹן. וְהוּא מַמְצִיא כָּל נִמְצָא. According to your nonsense, there was allegedly a different נִמְצָא, the so-called "pre-existing material", that G-d wasn't מַמְצִיא. – IsraelReader Jun 07 '20 at 17:19
  • @IsraelReader Why so offended? If it does not contradict Aristotle then it does not contradict Maimonides who was influenced by Aristotle. Look, anything created is not eternal. As it is impossible to create a square-triangle, so it is with ex nihilo because out of nothing, you get nothing — Parmenides – Turk Hill Jun 07 '20 at 17:25
  • @TurkHill Apparently, you have no answer to explain away Maimonides’ words in Yesodei Hatorah (1:1). Aristotle had no proof for an eternal universe. Thus, there is no reason to reject the literal account of Genesis; that Creation was made from nothing. While, normally, out of nothing, you get nothing, this doesn’t take into account Hashem creating matter on His own, and Maimonides established that the account in the Torah, is a superior account to that of the Aristotelian theory of eternity. – IsraelReader Jun 07 '20 at 20:48
  • @IsraelReader some scholars think that the Rambam actually accepted the Aristotle view. Does it make a difference weather G-d former the world out of preexisting matter? I think that it makes no difference. Since G-d cannot do the impossible, for example, G-d cannot create a square-triangle, then it follows that from nothing, you get nothing. – Turk Hill Jun 07 '20 at 22:55
  • Actually, Rambam writes, “We do not reject the Eternity of the Universe because certain passages in Scripture confirm Creation; for such passages are not more numerous than those in which G-d is represented as a corporal.... We should perhaps have had an easier task in showing that the Scriptural passages referred to are in harmony with the theory of the Eternity of the Universe if we accepted the latter, than we had in explaining the anthropomorphisms in the Bible when we rejected the idea that G-d is corporeal.” – Turk Hill Jun 07 '20 at 22:58
  • @TurkHill You have yet to explain away Maimonides’ words in Yesodei Hatorah (1:1). – IsraelReader Jun 07 '20 at 22:59
  • @IsraelReader I already explained this. Just as Aristotle’s G-d, the “unmoved mover” is a First Cause that formed the world out of preexisting matter, so to is Maimonides’ G-d a First cause which formed the world from pre-existing material. – Turk Hill Jun 07 '20 at 23:03
  • @TurkHill I already noted that according to your thesis, there was allegedly a different נִמְצָא, the so-called "pre-existing material", that G-d wasn't מַמְצִיא. That is untenable according to Maimonides. – IsraelReader Jun 08 '20 at 13:22
  • @Turk Hill Out of pure curiosity, I point out the position of another great Aristotelian philosopher, my compatriot Thomas Aquinas, according to whom there is no contradiction between creatio ex nihilo and eternity of the universe, since creatio ex nihilo does not mean "post nihilum": HaShem could have created the world "ab aeterno", without this leading to pantheism. – Amos74 Jun 08 '20 at 14:23
  • @Amos74 I agree. Good of you to mention Thomas Aquinas. I think once IsraelReader grapes Aristotelian thought he will have a better understanding of Rambam. Since Rambam, like Aristotle and Aquinas, understood G-d as the "unmoved mover" that formed the world out of pre-existing matter, then, it follows, that G-d is the First Cause, since who else would form the matter? Thus, there is nothing to reconcile. – Turk Hill Jun 08 '20 at 18:34
  • @IsraelReader See above. – Turk Hill Jun 08 '20 at 18:34

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