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In the past, I have found often that I can't go through all of the Kinnos during the service without rushing or skipping them. Are there any particularly important or interesting Kinnos that I could focus on?

Daniel Kagan
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    "Interesting" seems too subjective for this site. I'm not sure how you interpret "important". – Double AA Aug 06 '19 at 16:31
  • @doubleaa Important: Those written by the Kalir? – Joel K Aug 06 '19 at 16:42
  • @JoelK your guess is as good as mine – Double AA Aug 06 '19 at 16:44
  • Most shuls that I have attended do all of them. In my mind and in their minds, they are all "important" or they're not comparing anything. They are listed so they are said. Most people don't work or go to work in the afternoon. So, starting at 8a and finishing around noon is appropriate and fine for them, and they are not rushing. However, I agree that there are people there who do have to get to work, so they either skip or leave in the middle. However, as it is on Sunday, this year, the usual "rushers" don't need to rush. Why can't you say all of them, this year? – DanF Aug 09 '19 at 16:39
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    @DanielKagan I would recommend [edit]ing to add some more criteria that can be addressed and evaluated objectively. For example: "Recommended by rabbis to focus on," "most universally used," "best address my particular interest in ____," "most accessible to people not familiar with rabbinic poetry." – Isaac Moses Aug 09 '19 at 18:31
  • I attended a programme in my (Modern Orthodox) shul yesterday and one of the Rabbonim made a point of saying that kinnos are very personal and the point in the exercise is to inspire the appropriate feelings for the day, so whatever you feel works best for you to do that is what to say (we didn't do all but had explanations). Another Rabbi has said in the past that kinnos are not tephilos and there is no point in saying them in Hebrew at all unless you are fluent enough to understand what you are saying (or at least the poetry inspires you), and just reading the translation silently is better – Moses Supposes Aug 12 '19 at 11:14

2 Answers2

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Our shul has a list of key kinnot to recite in priority. I was told that there were different minhagim in dati leumi synagogues in Israel and this is one of them.

The numbers in handwriting should correspond to the page numbers in the artscroll Tisha b'Av ashkenaz siddur.

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mbloch
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  • Something tells me that this is the type of shul that would place timing limits on each part of davening. I've never seen a shul publish a list like this and put it on a wall. I'd be curious to know what they're thinking and how they came up with this list, and moreso, why they can't say all of them. – DanF Aug 09 '19 at 16:42
  • @DanF There is no time limit on each part of davening in this shul. The reason they don't say all of the Kinot is that it is a shul of working people, and some people have to go to work (also on Sunday in Israel). Others stay longer and say more kinnot on their own or learn. There are numerous shuls in my city who recite subsets of all kinnot. Others read all of them. – mbloch Aug 11 '19 at 17:39
  • @DanF Also I don't know if you understand the Hebrew of the kinnot but you'd be surprised how many native Hebrew speakers find them difficult - and they don't use translated siddurim. As such many shuls run shiurim from 10am on Tisha b’Av-related topics – mbloch Aug 11 '19 at 17:39
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    I had forgotten that you are in Israel. My comments were directed at us "spoiled" USers who have off on Sunday's. I guess Israelis could use a Friday Tish'a B'Av, but, it won't happen using our current calendar ;-( My Hebrew is quite good, but, yes, any piyut is hard to understand without commentary - even in Hebrew ;-) – DanF Aug 11 '19 at 18:08
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The best guidance I can come up with from a Kadmon is that the Ari Zal would only recite the Kinos and Piyutim that were written by Rabbi Eliezer HaKalir. They were written with Kabbalistic knowledge, so all else being equal, they have that advantage in that it makes them more powerful in what they effect in the higher realms. I am assuming that you would be able to connect to them in an equal manner that you would to any one of the other Kinnos.

Meuchedet
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    Would you kindly clarify the sentence: “[you came] up with a kadmon... the Ari Zal would...”? A “kadmon” quoted the Arizal? Also, would you kindly provide examples or sources that demonstrate Kalir’s kabbalistic intent? – Oliver Aug 06 '19 at 18:07
  • I was calling the Ari Zal a Kadmon. Hopefully tomorrow I will find the source bli neder. I seem to recall that it was at the beginning of Shaar HaKavanot. Also, according to many, Rebbi Elazar HaKaliri was the son of Rebbi Shimon Bar Yochai. – Meuchedet Aug 06 '19 at 20:14
  • Thanks for the clarification, indeed Maharch”u quotes it from Arizal here, beg. Nusah Ha’tefilah. (FTR, the opinion about Kalir being the son of RSHBY has been proven -over the past century- to be erroneous.) – Oliver Aug 06 '19 at 20:43
  • Where has it been proven? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleazar_ben_Killir speaks on in the matter. – Meuchedet Aug 06 '19 at 22:19
  • If you’re determined enough, that Wiki page is prob a start. Material from the Geonim discussing Kalir and discoveries in the field of piyyut have demonstrated this. There’s prob. a question here on MY.SE going into this at length, if not it would make for a good question. – Oliver Aug 06 '19 at 23:44
  • I guess Ai Zal as "anti" Rav Yehuda Halevi, who authored a few kinnot? – DanF Aug 11 '19 at 18:10
  • It's a pretty interesting Ari Zal. The Ari didn't even say Yigdal or some other famous tefilos because it wasn't accurately according to Kaballah. Rav Yakov Hillel hypothesises that it might be due to the words אלוקים חי which maybe is inaccurate according to Kaballah. Rav Chaim Vital wouldn't change a nusach even if it wasn't correct according to Kaballah when he was shliach Tzibbur because minhag Yisroel Torah. So it appears it wasn't being "anti" but rather about being more correct when possible. – Meuchedet Aug 11 '19 at 21:56
  • @Oliver, the hakdammah to the Oz vHadar Mesivta Kinos has lots of information about who Rabbi Eliezer HaKalir was and the different tzdadim as well. In the Shaar hakavanos above Maharch"u says that there are some that say the Ar"I said he was Rebbi Elazar brei dRebbi Shimon, bit he didn't hear that himself. He does hold that unlike many, Rebbi Elazar HaKalir had Kabalistic knowledge and knew how to be mesader the tefilos properly. – Meuchedet Aug 11 '19 at 22:05