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The Talmud says that there are 613 commandments in the Torah:

Rabbi Simlai, when preaching, said: 613 precepts were communicated to Moses: 365 negative precepts, corresponding to the number of solar days [in the year], and 248 positive precepts, corresponding to the number of members in a man's body [joints, or bones, covered with flesh and sinews, excluding teeth]. [Makkot 23b]

You would think that the Talmud would tell us next what they are, considering how critically important that is. But it doesn't. Strangely, the Talmud provides no list. Later, commentators have offered many candidate lists, which don't always agree among themselves.

Why did the Talmud not provide a list of the 613? Could they have been in a lost book? Any speculation on that in the Sources?

alicht
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Maurice Mizrahi
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  • I recall a related question about many numbers that Mishnah lists, like 4 Avos of Nezikin, etc - namely, were the known A"N simply counted to remember, or the number was prior and they tried to fill it up (hence different opinions). Same with Mitzvos or Number of letters of the Torah (600k). – Al Berko Jun 05 '19 at 17:38
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    Rav Yerucham Fishel Perla asks a related question: why doesn't the number 613 appear in the Mishnah, sifra, sifrei, or yerushalmi. He says it's almost as if it was purposefully concealed – robev Jun 05 '19 at 17:43
  • it was probably common knowledge at the time – Menachem Jun 05 '19 at 17:44
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    considering how critically important that is Is the number 613 critically important? – magicker72 Jun 05 '19 at 17:47
  • It would have been very long. – Double AA Jun 05 '19 at 17:48
  • @magicker72 no but the content is – robev Jun 05 '19 at 17:53
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    @robev And that content is included in the Torah, the Talmud, etc. – magicker72 Jun 05 '19 at 17:55
  • Maybe he had no list in mind – Double AA Jun 05 '19 at 18:18
  • @robev no it's not. Even the other opinions in the Talmud there about how many precepts there all agree with what's forbidden and what's permitted. It doesn't matter how you count them. – Double AA Jun 05 '19 at 18:19
  • “Why did the Talmud not provide a list of the 613?” Seems like you’re accepting R. Simlai’s statement as an established view. Is it possible “the Talmud” (both authorities mentioned in it and redactors of it) didn’t [all] agree with R. Simlai? Is it also that R. Simlai’s oh-so fortuitous number 613 is more sensational than fixed? See this informative entry in the JE. – Oliver Jun 06 '19 at 00:19
  • @Oliver -- If other rabbis disagreed with R. Simlai, the Talmud would have said so. The result of the discussion would be a complete list of the mitzvot. – Maurice Mizrahi Jun 06 '19 at 02:25
  • @MauriceMizrahi Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your first sentence. Also appears you didn’t see the first (!) paragraph in the article linked-to in my above comment. – Oliver Jun 06 '19 at 03:05
  • I read the whole thing and disagree. First, the compilers of the Talmud don't let isolated minority opinions slip in without comment. If it does, then it's not a minority opinion but an accepted tradition Second, the challenges to the number 613 are few and far between. – Maurice Mizrahi Jun 06 '19 at 09:18
  • @Maurice are you joking? Aren't there a whole bunch of other numbers provided on that page of Talmud? – Double AA Jun 06 '19 at 11:23
  • @MauriceMizrahi Again, you’re assuming R. Simlai’s utterance was intended to carry legal force (cf. Jacob’s A Tree of Life p. 16 and ‘Hazal’ by Auerbach referenced in his notes). You’re entitled to your opinion; just know that there are other questions and opinions which, by considering them, would alleviate your original question. See Ramban’s first piece on Rambam’s Sefer HaMitzvos. – Oliver Jun 06 '19 at 13:05

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I was told(source needed) some of the main reasons were the desire of the Sages to equal the Rabbinical decrees to the Torah laws, as opposed to Sedusees and others that claimed that only the Torah laws obligate. It the Talmud provided a clear list of all the Mitzvos, people would say "That would be sufficient for me".

That is also the reason all the following Halachic books (Rambam, Tur, etc) make no clear distinctions between Halochos Deorayso and Derabonon, they list them mixed.

Al Berko
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  • You don't know who you heard it from? 2) Your second paragraph is simply factually wrong. Try searching all the halachic seforim you list (Rambam, meaning Mishnah Torah and Sefer HaMitzvot, Tur, and Shulchan Aruch) for דאורייתא, דרבנן. They make countless distinctions of these two categories.
    • – Yaacov Deane Jun 05 '19 at 18:14
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    I agree about the Tur but the Rambam is very careful to list Rabbinic laws after outlining the biblical ones. Look at how he organized most of Hilkhot Shabbat – Double AA Jun 05 '19 at 19:24